I’m starting to get extremely frustrated with Dorsey.

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, ganesh said:

At this moment, I think Reich is better as an OC than Dorsey.  But there is a personal Dorsey Allen connection that cannot be ignored.  Also, do you really want your Franchise QB to go through three OC in three seasons?  Beane and McDermott don't believe in that instability. 

Yeah I hear ya.  I’m not in the Dorsey hate club, yet.  He’s a rookie play caller.  He’s learning.  I won’t judge him completely on his first 14 games. Iirc 4 teams have scored more points than us.  We should be top 5-  we are top 5-  we may have the best qb, but our OL is kinda bad and we lack trustworthy pass catchers other than Diggs.  Our RBs aren’t special.  Top 5 scoring is fine.  Going 11-3 is great

[John from Riverside]

People forget the Dorsey is a rookie coordinator

 

He’s not going to be able to overcome the injuries that we’ve had on the office of line and he doesn’t catch the ball

[Richard Noggin]

14 hours ago, TN Bills Fan said:

One of the ways I like to evaluate coaches is to see if young players develop and see if they use veterans correctly.  Dorsey, Kromer, and Hall get failing grades in that department.  Gabe Davis has regressed even from where he was 2 years ago.  Mackenzie either was never good enough or has regressed.  Shakir is invisible.  Hodgins was poorly evaluated.  Instead they end up grasping at 2 limited veterans at the end of the season.  Dawkins seems to get run around in the passing game more than he has in the past.  That has to be sloppy technique (coaching). 

 

In response to the bolded:

 

Statistically, Gabriel Davis is having his best professional season (or, if you like, the same kind of season but with a few more targets). Note that his poor catch % is perfectly in line with his first two seasons. And also recall that he also disappeared and/or underperformed for stretches each of the past two seasons (due to injuries and/or poor play). That KC playoff game has skewed everyone's expectations. This is who he is, just with a more prominent role.

[ganesh]

45 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

In response to the bolded:

 

Statistically, Gabriel Davis is having his best professional season (or, if you like, the same kind of season but with a few more targets). Note that his poor catch % is perfectly in line with his first two seasons. And also recall that he also disappeared and/or underperformed for stretches each of the past two seasons (due to injuries and/or poor play). That KC playoff game has skewed everyone's expectations. This is who he is, just with a more prominent role.

And Dawson Knox is warming up the past few weeks.  I expect him to have a much larger role in the next SIX games.

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1. I have no doubt the lack of creativity is a response by the Bills to Daboll trying to fool the opposition with practically every call.    That is fun when it's working and then stretches like the road to 7-6 last year happen and a defensive minded HC starts questioning why everything has to be so complicated when you have Superman at QB.   

 

2. Agree.   They gotta' use Knox heavily in the passing game down the stretch.   He's not the most graceful or coordinated TE and takes some terrible hits/falls so I've considered that maybe they've limited some of his usage to keep him fresh down the stretch........just as I think they've limited some of the quick game to Diggs and Davis because of the beating they saw the WR corps take in the 2020 season and how diminished they were come playoff time.

 

3. But also agree on the quick game.   They have been reduced to a station to station offense.   It's not where they SHOULD be at this point of JA's career........but it's where they are and every game is critical now.   I think that bye and #1 seed loom large.   Allen being the best player in the NFL is still capable of putting up 30 point performances...........it just takes 4 quarters of highly physical football from JA to get there now.

 

 

Yea I also agree Dabes arguably veered too far the other way but I'd rather be reigning it in a bit than having to push the dial. I do think the last couple of weeks we have seen a bit more creativity. But there was a spell in the middle of the season (even before the offensive slump games) where I wondered if we had re-hired Chris Palmer as passing game consultant (or whatever he was when Roman was here). 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

People forget the Dorsey is a rookie coordinator

 

He’s not going to be able to overcome the injuries that we’ve had on the office of line and he doesn’t catch the ball

that "talk to text" will get you every time. 🤣

[Livinginthepast]

The one reason I liked Dabol better than Dorsey is that he threw in an effective gadget play every once in a while (often when the defenses expected nothing). The only time I can remember Dorsey doing that recently was with Knox under centre (very unusual but not gadget) on the draw Offside play vs the Jets.  The Bills have the intelligence and the skill set at multiple positions on offense (besides Josh) who can make these plays happen. I would love to see more Rb option plays, flea flickers etc thrown into the offense. Was Dorsey a very vanilla QB in Miami? why does he seem conservative?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

The one reason I liked Dabol better than Dorsey is that he threw in an effective gadget play every once in a while (often when the defenses expected nothing). The only time I can remember Dorsey doing that recently was with Knox under centre (very unusual but not gadget) on the draw Offside play vs the Jets.  The Bills have the intelligence and the skill set at multiple positions on offense (besides Josh) who can make these plays happen. I would love to see more Rb option plays, flea flickers etc thrown into the offense. Was Dorsey a very vanilla QB in Miami? why does he seem conservative?

 

I think the last two weeks have been better. More wrinkles. But I agree some of it was very vanilla earlier in the season. I liked the calls on the first two touchdowns yesterday. 

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, ganesh said:

At this moment, I think Reich is better as an OC than Dorsey.  But there is a personal Dorsey Allen connection that cannot be ignored.  Also, do you really want your Franchise QB to go through three OC in three seasons?  Beane and McDermott don't believe in that instability. 

A very good point I’m not continually changing out offensive coordinators everything that we do should be about getting the most out of Josh which includes Continuity but there is a direct correlation with how good the offensive line play is and overall team offensive success would really like to see us try to reinvent the Super Bowl bills offensive line

[Steptide]

I agree Dorsey has been frustrating at times, but the bills offensively are better this year than last in almost every category. 

 

I wanna believe when playoffs come, they unleash the beast, kinda like what we saw last year 

[HOUSE]

He is lucky I didn't flatten his tires in the parking lot 

[Ayjent]

The running game is starting to be more effective to dictate the game and I will give the Offensive staff credit for that as we saw them strangle the Pats D with the run game and good Defense and then take over the fourth with a good balance predicated on effective running against Miami.  It seemed to me that once Morse went out they took some time to adjust and once they realized they could run effectively things worked out.  That is who they need to be a team that is balanced and can use play action to get space and matchups for the receivers.

 

Getting Knox more involved was huge and I wonder if they should use Cook more in the slot. McKenzie is someone who just isn’t getting the ball in space, even though I’m not a big fan after seeing him in a more prominent role.  I haven’t watched all 22 to see if that is a McKenzie issue, a play design issue, an Allen issue or a blocking issue.  I’m sure it’s some combo of all of those things but the truth is that the Bills arent getting much YAC and McKenzie and Cook were supposed to change that.  Why the offense has gotten away from timing routes is batted balls from what I can tell and the one obvious attempt to use play action on a Diggs slant that may have been a huge play was deflected on Saturday night.  
 

Teams are spying Allen so there should be favorable matchups out of the backfield and slot.  The Bills play calling should also use more designed passes that look like QB designed runs.  Especially ones that create space by having the spy commit to pursuit creating holes over the spy and under the deep coverage.  The passing game lacks a rhythm and is really predicated on Josh escaping and making something happen.  Teams are lining up wide on the D line as well and that makes sense because the Bills most physical running back is Singletary and he is a strong back but not some one that is just going to impose his physicality over the course of a game and the Bills aren’t committed to exploiting the weaknesses of such formations enough to make teams think twice about doing it. The passing game just doesn’t seem to have many free runners despite having a really dangerous threat at QB to run it.  For those saying it is play design I’d have to say you are likely right, because I’m not seeing great play design unless Josh is just deciding to not execute the easy designed play.  Seeing Diggs getting upset as much as he has this season says to me that things are there but something is going wrong in execution as well. 
 

The main point is that the Offense has another gear that we can all see and for whatever reason they aren’t in that gear. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ayjent

[pocoboy]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:25 AM, FireChans said:

Here’s the thing. I have never been a “fire the OC” guy.

 

 

I'm sure this has been quoted and commented eleventy-bajillion times already, but what the heck, YOU HAVE FIRE IN YOUR HANDLE.

On 12/18/2022 at 12:32 AM, BuffaloRebound said:

I hate how hard everything is.  Relying on Josh to constantly make super-human plays seems destined to come up short.  We’re the Elway Broncos before they got Terrell Davis and a running game.  

 

We might have Terrell Davis right now, but he's stuck behind Model Citizen Who Runs Into The Back Of OL.

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, Steptide said:

I agree Dorsey has been frustrating at times, but the bills offensively are better this year than last in almost every category. 

 

I wanna believe when playoffs come, they unleash the beast, kinda like what we saw last year 

This is what I'm hoping for. Daboll admitted to keeping the offense vanilla at times and letting the talent just beat the other guy. I could see Dorsey doing something similar. He's done the things I want him to do more of at times but will go away from it quick. 

[3rdand12]

On 12/18/2022 at 7:57 PM, Eastport bills said:

Are you familiar with the term , take what the defense is giving you? The runs for Josh that are called in are because the defense is playing a certain way.Certain runs he audibles into because he thinks it’s better than Dorsey’s play. Obviously winning is not your main objective. Remember you’re looking at a revamped O-line, with 2 starters including your center out of the lineup.The last drive was surgical with Motor getting first downs and crossers keeping drives alive. 11 and 3, 5 tough wins in a row including 3 division wins. If you’re looking for perfection, sorry.

why would you think winning is not the main objective?
 Defenses should not be dictating what the Offense is doing !
And Josh should not have to overide the play call so often and play hero ball to win games.

[3rdand12]

20 hours ago, ganesh said:

At this moment, I think Reich is better as an OC than Dorsey.  But there is a personal Dorsey Allen connection that cannot be ignored.  Also, do you really want your Franchise QB to go through three OC in three seasons?  Beane and McDermott don't believe in that instability. 

I feel you are on to something though,

 Dorsey will get his footing in time and yes , he and Allen are tight.

But bringing Frank in as O advisor or OC whisperer > Ken Dorsey might be grateful as heck !

 I mean who is he leaning on right now ? McD ? A defense expert.
Frank wants to get back to work asap in any capacity ! He would be an asset and not a threat to Ken I am sure.

 Genius you are Ganesh !

[WideNine]

On 12/17/2022 at 9:25 PM, FireChans said:

Here’s the thing. I have never been a “fire the OC” guy. I think if you polled fans of 32 NFL teams, and ask them their biggest problem with their team, it would either be the OC or playcalling, two nebulous concepts that usually come down to more of a lack of execution than anything else.

 

All that being said, Dorsey is driving me nuts. I can live with getting away from the run a little bit. Josh is our best offensive weapon and anytime the ball isn’t in his hands, defenses are happy. 
 

What I cannot deal with is a lack of preparedness and what appears to be glaring schematic flaws. 
 

There were two separate occasions on deep shots tonight where Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie were operating within 2 yards of each other. Unless one of those recievers ran the wrong route, there is exactly NO excuse for that. These were not flood concepts or rubs or anything like that. Just two guys running flag routes next to each other.

 

The other thing. Backup OLmen all over the field because of injuries, not his fault. But we go out there and try to catch the defense with cadence with two backups in on the OL? Is that a joke? Of course, Saffold jumped (which is even funnier) but I question the decision making at all.

 

Bottom line is the Bills offense is still really good. Statistically one of the best. But a lot of times, it feels to me that Josh ends games dragging this team to the finish line after mixed results for the first 3 Q’s. And you know, that’s fine. If that’s the story of the 2022 Bills offense, it’s still pretty good. 
 

But to me, I don’t think that’s the sum of our parts. I think that’s selling us short. 
 

As a positive, Knox was infinitely more involved today which was awesome to see and definitely worked. So you know, Dorsey isn’t hopeless. But these are the kind of things that I had hoped would be cleaned up by week 6,

 

 

Have to apologize to the OP as I posted the same thing about receiver routes being on top of each other.

 

I am pretty sure it is not all on Dorsey drawing them up that way, I have to think it is getting the right practice and reps in so players are executing those plays at a higher level. Say what you want about Daboll but he could draw up some fairly complex plays and pre-snap motions and it was rare that you saw miscues.

 

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

 

Have to apologize to the OP as I posted the same thing about receiver routes being on top of each other.

 

I am pretty sure it is not all on Dorsey drawing them up that way, I have to think it is getting the right practice and reps in so players are executing those plays at a higher level. Say what you want about Daboll but he could draw up some fairly complex plays and pre-snap motions and it was rare that you saw miscues.

 

 

 

 

an so what do you credit that to?
 

PS I am NOT a fire Dorsey guy, Lets be very clear on that matter

[RocCityRoller]

11 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I feel you are on to something though,

 Dorsey will get his footing in time and yes , he and Allen are tight.

But bringing Frank in as O advisor or OC whisperer > Ken Dorsey might be grateful as heck !

 I mean who is he leaning on right now ? McD ? A defense expert.
Frank wants to get back to work asap in any capacity ! He would be an asset and not a threat to Ken I am sure.

 Genius you are Ganesh !

 

 

Buffalo has an embarrassment of riches in the offensive coaching staff

 

Mike Shula - A graduate of the University of Alabama, he was the school's head football coach from 2003 to 2006. He was the offensive coordinator for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers from 1996 to 1999, the Carolina Panthers from 2013 to 2017, and the New York Giants from 2018 to 2019.

 

Joe Brady - He previously served as the offensive coordinator for the Carolina Panthers from 2020 to 2021. He was a passing game coordinator and wide receiver coach for the LSU Tigers during the 2019 season, winning the Broyles Award for the best assistant coach in college football

 

Aaron Kromer - New Orleans Saints (2012) Interim head coach, Chicago Bears (2013–2014) Offensive coordinator

 

Rob Boras - UNLV (2001–2003) Offensive coordinator & offensive line coach, St. Louis/Los Angeles Rams (2015–2016) Offensive coordinator

 

All have been OC or higher in the NFL and D1 football. Not trying to bust your balls, but this was a topic before the season.

 

Too many cooks in the kitchen?

21 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

just wondering, who would people choose to replace dorsey?

There are 4 former NFL OC on the staff. I'm sure Shula/ Boras/ Kromer or Brady wouldlove to be OC for Josh Allen

 

Ironic two of the names are Shula and Brady!

[Beast]

If Singletary scores at the end the Bills put 36 on the board.

 

And we still have threads like this.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Beast