GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Geez, you're 2000 years too late. We are out to dominate the world, and the US is just a speed bump.
GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Add another spy to "our" camp: The senior US official dealing with Iran's nuclear program, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security, John Bolton, arrives in Israel this weekend for talks Sunday with Israeli officials ahead of a crucial meeting next week of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency, a senior administration official said Wednesday. Jerusalem Post - 9/9/04
TPS Posted September 10, 2004 Author Posted September 10, 2004 Geez, you're 2000 years too late. We are out to dominate the world, and the US is just a speed bump. 25431[/snapback] So you don't think AIPAC/Israel doesn't try to influence American foreign policy in favor of Israel? You don't think there might be people in the Pentagon who's Middle East policy is consistent with Israel's, so they help each other out in various ways? And certainly Israel has never spied on the US, Mr. Pollard? I think it's fascinating that the power struggle over the direction of US foreign policy in the ME appears to be being waged (somewhat) on the surface. And I don't think it's fantasy or conspiracy to believe that if the goals of the Neo-cons in the Pentagon are consistent with the goals of Israel, that these two groups would try to help each other out.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 So you don't think AIPAC/Israel doesn't try to influence American foreign policy in favor of Israel? You don't think there might be people in the Pentagon who's Middle East policy is consistent with Israel's, so they help each other out in various ways? And certainly Israel has never spied on the US, Mr. Pollard? I think it's fascinating that the power struggle over the direction of US foreign policy in the ME appears to be being waged (somewhat) on the surface. And I don't think it's fantasy or conspiracy to believe that if the goals of the Neo-cons in the Pentagon are consistent with the goals of Israel, that these two groups would try to help each other out. 25497[/snapback] And we wonder why the terrorists still are targeting us... maybe they DO have a point about our ties to Israel after all. I never thought that we would tolerate or be stupid enough to allow Israeli influence like this. We can't possibly follow a road map to peace if we continue allowing this to happen! This is a matter of two sides who are BOTH going out of their way to avoid peace, and trying to position themselves to do so.
GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 So you don't think AIPAC/Israel doesn't try to influence American foreign policy in favor of Israel? You don't think there might be people in the Pentagon who's Middle East policy is consistent with Israel's, so they help each other out in various ways? And certainly Israel has never spied on the US, Mr. Pollard? I think it's fascinating that the power struggle over the direction of US foreign policy in the ME appears to be being waged (somewhat) on the surface. And I don't think it's fantasy or conspiracy to believe that if the goals of the Neo-cons in the Pentagon are consistent with the goals of Israel, that these two groups would try to help each other out. 25497[/snapback] Maybe it's me, but why is lobbying considered espionage only when it relates to Israel? All of the factors you outlined are legit concerns for Israel's security, so why is it hard to believe that Israel would develop a lobbying team to allow its position to be heard? Does Tony Blair spy in the US because the goals of both countries in ME are consistent? Israel gets slammed because its future mirrors the one of the US, and there are very parallel concerns to both countries from the rise of Muslim extremism. The current US policy also benefits Turkey and Jordan, and hopes to finally rid Lebanon of the Syrian noose. If US Jews really hold that much sway, don't you think that the only states that would affect the vote would be NY, CA & FL?
TPS Posted September 10, 2004 Author Posted September 10, 2004 Maybe it's me, but why is lobbying considered espionage only when it relates to Israel? All of the factors you outlined are legit concerns for Israel's security, so why is it hard to believe that Israel would develop a lobbying team to allow its position to be heard? Does Tony Blair spy in the US because the goals of both countries in ME are consistent? Israel gets slammed because its future mirrors the one of the US, and there are very parallel concerns to both countries from the rise of Muslim extremism. The current US policy also benefits Turkey and Jordan, and hopes to finally rid Lebanon of the Syrian noose. If US Jews really hold that much sway, don't you think that the only states that would affect the vote would be NY, CA & FL? 25530[/snapback] Lobbying isn't. But there is an allegation and investigation of spying at the Pentagon going on at the moment. As I tried to say, what's fascinating to me is that the fued between analysts at the Pentagon (the pro-Israel group) and those at the CIA has become somewhat public. However, I will add that I would hope our foreign policy is based on what's best for us, not Israel. As for sway, you should know better: it's not the number of Jewish voters; AIPAC is a PAC, and, like any PAC, can (and does) influence any race in the country by pooring money into the campaign coffers of those who support their positions.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Maybe it's me, but why is lobbying considered espionage only when it relates to Israel? All of the factors you outlined are legit concerns for Israel's security, so why is it hard to believe that Israel would develop a lobbying team to allow its position to be heard? Does Tony Blair spy in the US because the goals of both countries in ME are consistent? Israel gets slammed because its future mirrors the one of the US, and there are very parallel concerns to both countries from the rise of Muslim extremism. The current US policy also benefits Turkey and Jordan, and hopes to finally rid Lebanon of the Syrian noose. If US Jews really hold that much sway, don't you think that the only states that would affect the vote would be NY, CA & FL? 25530[/snapback] Israel's future does not FULLY mirror that of the US... we did NOT get supplemental money from Russia, France, Prussia, or Austria in the 18th and 19th centuries to protect us from natives that we pushed out, or Britain in 1812! There was no influence or conscience in that time when it came to displacing natives... the technological difference was HUGE as compared to Israel-Arab conflicts. The natives never really had a legitimate chance at a FAIR and EQUITABLE settlement... they were lied to, cheated, forced out... and in that grave injustice, America's conduct was shameful. It was a land grab akin to what Israel is trying to do now. Poor Israel... they actually have to combat peoples they try to force out that have the same technology they do, and they should act accordingly. If they continue to be stubborn, it will only get worse!
TPS Posted September 10, 2004 Author Posted September 10, 2004 Maybe it's me, but why is lobbying considered espionage only when it relates to Israel? All of the factors you outlined are legit concerns for Israel's security, so why is it hard to believe that Israel would develop a lobbying team to allow its position to be heard? Does Tony Blair spy in the US because the goals of both countries in ME are consistent? Israel gets slammed because its future mirrors the one of the US, and there are very parallel concerns to both countries from the rise of Muslim extremism. The current US policy also benefits Turkey and Jordan, and hopes to finally rid Lebanon of the Syrian noose. If US Jews really hold that much sway, don't you think that the only states that would affect the vote would be NY, CA & FL? 25530[/snapback] Oh, and let me make this clear, this isn't about Israelis or Jews in general, it's about Israeli policy. There are just as many Jews against Sharon's policies as there are for his policies.
GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Lobbying isn't. But there is an allegation and investigation of spying at the Pentagon going on at the moment. As I tried to say, what's fascinating to me is that the fued between analysts at the Pentagon (the pro-Israel group) and those at the CIA has become somewhat public. However, I will add that I would hope our foreign policy is based on what's best for us, not Israel. As for sway, you should know better: it's not the number of Jewish voters; AIPAC is a PAC, and, like any PAC, can (and does) influence any race in the country by pooring money into the campaign coffers of those who support their positions. 25608[/snapback] Last I read of the news of spying, it involved Franklin meeting with the AIPAC guys and sharing details of preliminary drafts of non-classified documents to be presented at the Pentagon. If that is the case, it is a public airing of how K Street works, and Jewish PACs are working the system. The feud encompasses Pentagon, CIA & State. I can see the rationale - neo-cons pushed for the military action, and CIA is getting the blame for inconclusive intelligence used in justifying the military action. Doesn't take much to figure out the natural defensive response to an attack on your career - Attack someone else.
GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Israel's future does not FULLY mirror that of the US... we did NOT get supplemental money from Russia, France, Prussia, or Austria in the 18th and 19th centuries to protect us from natives that we pushed out, or Britain in 1812! There was no influence or conscience in that time when it came to displacing natives... the technological difference was HUGE as compared to Israel-Arab conflicts. The natives never really had a legitimate chance at a FAIR and EQUITABLE settlement... they were lied to, cheated, forced out... and in that grave injustice, America's conduct was shameful. It was a land grab akin to what Israel is trying to do now. Poor Israel... they actually have to combat peoples they try to force out that have the same technology they do, and they should act accordingly. If they continue to be stubborn, it will only get worse! 25621[/snapback] I would respond if I knew what the heck you're talking about.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 I would respond if I knew what the heck you're talking about. 25656[/snapback] OK, here's the simple version: 1. The United States NEVER got support in the form of loan guarantees or direct aid for its defense. NOT MIRRORED 2. Israel puts up resistance to an equitable settlement with the Palestinians after THEY attempted and still attempt to increase their lands by building settlements they KNOW inflame Palestinian hatred. The United States DID increase lands by building settlements, cheating, and removing Native Americans, which inflamed Indian Wars. The United States never offered equitable settlements to reflect their actions during that time. MIRROR 3. Israel gets bombarded by terrorist attacks which kill innocent people, and responds by killing innocent people. The United States got bombarded by Indian attacks on the frontiers that kill innocent people, and responded by killing innocent people. MIRROR 4. The Palestinians have the same technological level in weapons as Israel. The Native Americans NEVER had the same technological level in weapons as the United States. NOT MIRRORED 5. Israel has rarely negotiated in good faith with the Palestinians. The United States rarely negotiated in good faith with the Native Americans. MIRRORED It's pretty much a toss-up... Actually, this subject makes a VERY GOOD research paper topic. I have to keep this in mind!!
GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 OK, here's the simple version: 1. The United States NEVER got support in the form of loan guarantees or direct aid for its defense. NOT MIRRORED 2. Israel puts up resistance to an equitable settlement with the Palestinians after THEY attempted and still attempt to increase their lands by building settlements they KNOW inflame Palestinian hatred. The United States DID increase lands by building settlements, cheating, and removing Native Americans, which inflamed Indian Wars. The United States never offered equitable settlements to reflect their actions during that time. MIRROR 3. Israel gets bombarded by terrorist attacks which kill innocent people, and responds by killing innocent people. The United States got bombarded by Indian attacks on the frontiers that kill innocent people, and responded by killing innocent people. MIRROR 4. The Palestinians have the same technological level in weapons as Israel. The Native Americans NEVER had the same technological level in weapons as the United States. NOT MIRRORED 5. Israel has rarely negotiated in good faith with the Palestinians. The United States rarely negotiated in good faith with the Native Americans. MIRRORED It's pretty much a toss-up... Actually, this subject makes a VERY GOOD research paper topic. I have to keep this in mind!! 26340[/snapback] Just a bit of advice, before you start your long research project, perhaps you should investigate the meaning of the word "future."
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Just a bit of advice, before you start your long research project, perhaps you should investigate the meaning of the word "future." 26346[/snapback] ? I am confused... future? huh? I'd respond if I knew what YOU were talking about!
GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 ? I am confused... future? huh? I'd respond if I knew what YOU were talking about! 26353[/snapback] Read the post where I mentioned "mirror" and conclude on your own.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Read the post where I mentioned "mirror" and conclude on your own. 26355[/snapback] OK, I see now!!! Come one, come all! See the Incredible Shrinking Man!! His face turns pink, then red, then crimson as he shrinks!! Ohh BOY, that is a serious insert foot into mouth. But still, comparing the past histories of both is intriguing. Next time, I'll put my reading cap on, and seat it properly!!!
GG Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 OK, I see now!!! Come one, come all! See the Incredible Shrinking Man!! His face turns pink, then red, then crimson as he shrinks!! Ohh BOY, that is a serious insert foot into mouth. But still, comparing the past histories of both is intriguing. Next time, I'll put my reading cap on, and seat it properly!!! 26377[/snapback] A man who admits his mistakes does not shrink
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 A man who admits his mistakes does not shrink 26384[/snapback] Well, I sure feel like it! It's almost 3 in the morning here, and I am off to sleep. Yes, I am human. DAMN!
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