Great Catches by Bills receivers - Are they winning 1 on 1 battles?

[Tanoros]

1 hour ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

Isn't that the same game that Diggs made an amazing catch well before Jefferson's?  

MN had a ton of contested catches, and even Diggs had a catchable contested drop. Anyway, that was how I felt watching the game. 

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

Isn't that the same game that Diggs made an amazing catch well before Jefferson's?  

Yes I mentioned the one-handed grab in to OP (unfortunately that was the drive that ended on the 4th down Int in the endzone).

 

Since you brought it up however, I will also note (and yes I remember this clearly and have a long memory) with 3:50 left on a third & 10, Diggs dropped a 20 yard pass that hit him in the #'s, which was a large reason the Bills lost the game (though yes the OT int by Allen too haunts me😉).  

 

 

11 minutes ago, Tanoros said:

MN had a ton of contested catches, and even Diggs had a catchable contested drop. Anyway, that was how I felt watching the game. 

Wasn't contested if thinking the same play late in the game.  It was a timing pattern down the sideline where Diggs turned the ball was there and the defender behind him.  It was a drop.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[SinceThe70s]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yes I mentioned the one-handed grab in to OP (unfortunately that was the drive that ended on the 4th down Int in the endzone).

 

Since you brought it up however, I will also note (and yes I remember this clearly and have a long memory) with 3:50 left on a third & 10, Diggs dropped a 20 yard pass that hit him in the #'s, which was a large reason the Bills lost the game (though yes the OT int by Allen too haunts me😉).  

 

 

Wasn't contested if thinking the same play late in the game.  It was a drop.

 

I'm trying to keep up here. Are we complaining about the lack of great catches by Bills receivers or are we complaining about the drops by Bills receivers or are we just complaining?

 

Did you happen to see the Tyler Boyd's recent drop:

 

 

Same guy who made this catch:

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

I'm trying to keep up here. Are we complaining about the lack of great catches by Bills receivers or are we complaining about the drops by Bills receivers or are we just complaining?

 

Did you happen to see the Tyler Boyd's recent drop:

 

 

Same guy who made this catch:

 

 

And the point?  Just was responding to another post. The thread is about contested catches but if you want to start bringing up drops why don't you start your own thread?

 

By the way I did see the drop by Boyd and it was terrible. Fortunately at the end of the day it did not cost them the game.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[Ya Digg?]

4 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

I'm trying to keep up here. Are we complaining about the lack of great catches by Bills receivers or are we complaining about the drops by Bills receivers or are we just complaining?

 

Did you happen to see the Tyler Boyd's recent drop:

 

 

Same guy who made this catch:

 

 

Considering the OP, yes

[Billsfan1972]

3 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Have you analyzed every other team like you have the Bills? Or are you looking at other teams highlights and comparing that to the Bills? My opinion is yes, you are being overly critical about this 

No I have not, however as said I do watch a lot of football and I see a lot of contested catches by other players. To my eyes I haven't seen as many by the Bills who I watch every week and every play.

 

Have you watched every other team and every other game so that you can definitively say the Bills have made so many contested catches?

 

However I respect your response that you think the answer is no. The snarky follow-up though was uncalled for.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[ColoradoBills]

6 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Watching other teams and seem to see a lot of great catches, contested ones, tough ones where the qb didn't put it right on the #'s and receivers winning one on one battles.

 

Am I wrong to think we don't see as many by the Bills?  Yes Diggs makes his catches, but most are just great routes and throws.  I remember the one handed one vs. Minny and obviously the one vs. Detroit where he took the hit too.

 

Davis I remember the one in the endzone vs. Pitt.

 

Knox I remember one too.

 

Look a crisp route and the ball being thrown accurately, the swing pass in open spaces, or the pass that hits the receiver right where it should in the open seam these are things we expect and see.  

 

It is the difficult catch, the one that bails out the QB, the one where the receiver takes a violent hit and hold on, or when caught and was contested by the CB/DB, these are the ones I have seen a lot of lately when watching other games & highlights.

 

Yes I think back to the Minny game and all the catches they seemed to make to continue drives and convert 3rd & 4th downs as an example.

 

Am I being tough on the Bills saying I haven't seen nearly enough and then the question is why not?

 

 

 

 

So, it's your contention that the Bills receivers (specifically Diggs, Davis and Knox) are lacking in football skills compared to the

other teams WRs that you have observed.

 

If I buy into your observations, what is your answer on how this can be rectified?  Do you recommend Beane move on from some

of these players?  Is Chad Hall not the WR coach they need.

 

Personally, I believe that the Bills have a pretty good WR room, and that Chad Hall is doing a good job.  I do see adding some talent

next year.  One through the draft and one through FA.

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

So, it's your contention that the Bills receivers (specifically Diggs, Davis and Knox) are lacking in football skills compared to the

other teams WRs that you have observed.

 

If I buy into your observations, what is your answer on how this can be rectified?  Do you recommend Beane move on from some

of these players?  Is Chad Hall not the WR coach they need.

 

Personally, I believe that the Bills have a pretty good WR room, and that Chad Hall is doing a good job.  I do see adding some talent

next year.  One through the draft and one through FA.

Not at all what I said.  Read the op.

 

But yes I haven't seen too many one on one battles won. Not getting into a war of words or going to start calling out receivers or pointing to specific plays either.

 

But let's for arguments sake use the Bills defense and the concerns of late to juxtapose my comment.  How many times have people complained that passes are completed against our secondary because coverage while there the other receiver caught the ball?

 

Have you seen many tough contested catches by Bills receivers?  Yes they've made them, just not as many as I've seen other teams and players make.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[LeGOATski]

Other teams' receivers make tough catches sometimes and drop them other times.

 

The Bills receivers make tough catches sometimes and drop them other times.

 

That's what I've learnt so far.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

I’d rather have a guy like Diggs that gets total separation. Dude is on pace to shatter his TD record. And we know he can Moss a DB if needed. 

22 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Other teams' receivers make tough catches sometimes and drop them other times.

 

The Bills receivers make tough catches sometimes and drop them other times.

 

That's what I've learnt so far.

What

[LeGOATski]

Going by NFL Next Gen Stats https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving

 

Stefon Diggs is:

#102 in the amount of cushion he gets

#74 in the amount of separation he gets

#27 in catch percentage

#3 in targets

 

In other words, CBs don't give him any cushion, he doesn't get much separation, but he catches a lot. Interesting.

 

Meanwhile, Gabe Davis is:

#84 in the amount of cushion he gets

#92 in the amount of separation he gets

#113 in catch percentage

#47 in targets

 

In other words, CBs don't give him much cushion, he gets basically zero separation, he sucks at catching. Interesting.

 

 

Was this useful? Did it have any purpose at all? Probably not.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

57 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Going by NFL Next Gen Stats https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving

 

Stefon Diggs is:

#102 in the amount of cushion he gets

#74 in the amount of separation he gets

#27 in catch percentage

#3 in targets

 

In other words, CBs don't give him any cushion, he doesn't get much separation, but he catches a lot. Interesting.

 

Meanwhile, Gabe Davis is:

#84 in the amount of cushion he gets

#92 in the amount of separation he gets

#113 in catch percentage

#47 in targets

 

In other words, CBs don't give him much cushion, he gets basically zero separation, he sucks at catching. Interesting.

 

 

Was this useful? Did it have any purpose at all? Probably not.

 

 

I'm wondering who amongst great receivers get the most cushion?  Does #92 mean Davis doesn't do a good job getting separation? 

 

Davis Catch # is not great, but if uncatchable not his fault.

 

What I want is a measure of "contested catch rate" or "hold rate when hit" or similar. 

 

As said I can remember specific catches where the receiver made a great catch and it was not the best of throws (Diggs definitely, Knox one or two and even Davis).  I remember MacKenzie holding on to one where he may have been concussed after a violent hit as he caught the ball.  There are others.

 

The eye test is though the Bills haven't had many this year (and let's leave Diggs out of the equation). 

[skibum]

Wouldn't you rather have an accurate Quarterback?

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, skibum said:

Wouldn't you rather have an accurate Quarterback?

Yes I would & I think Allen is very accurate.  

 

What I don't see from the Bills (and maybe I am wrong) is the receiver catching that 50/50 ball or the catch in tight coverage with the DB/Safety right there. 

 

I see plenty of great throws just past the outstretched arm of defensive players or as the receiver comes out of his cut, just not the contested ones (as an example).

 

An example is Mayfield's winning TD vs. the Raiders Thursday where the DB was right there but the receiver (and not a top NFL receiver) made the play on the ball.     

[Thurman#1]

On 12/10/2022 at 10:32 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

Watching other teams and seem to see a lot of great catches, contested ones, tough ones where the qb didn't put it right on the #'s and receivers winning one on one battles.

 

Am I wrong to think we don't see as many by the Bills?  Yes Diggs makes his catches, but most are just great routes and throws.  I remember the one handed one vs. Minny and obviously the one vs. Detroit where he took the hit too.

 

Davis I remember the one in the endzone vs. Pitt.

 

Knox I remember one too.

 

Look a crisp route and the ball being thrown accurately, the swing pass in open spaces, or the pass that hits the receiver right where it should in the open seam these are things we expect and see.  

 

It is the difficult catch, the one that bails out the QB, the one where the receiver takes a violent hit and hold on, or when caught and was contested by the CB/DB, these are the ones I have seen a lot of lately when watching other games & highlights.

 

Yes I think back to the Minny game and all the catches they seemed to make to continue drives and convert 3rd & 4th downs as an example.

 

Am I being tough on the Bills saying I haven't seen nearly enough and then the question is why not?

 

 

 

 

 

So, you feel we have fewer great catches than other teams?

 

And your evidence is that you "seem to see a lot of great catches" from other teams? You're aware that there are 32 teams right? And that 31 of them are not the Bills? Which would mean that if everything went as expected we'd see 31x the number of catches from other teams as the Bills?

 

You did say the same thing twice, in different sentences, that you saw lots from other teams. Again, the slightest bit of thought would point out the wildly obvious reason it seems that way.

 

And then your other bit of evidence is pointing out a few times when the Bills did make those catches?

 

I mean, seriously, that's all your evidence and the thought you've put into it?

 

Jesus!

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Billsfan1972]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

So, you feel we have fewer great catches than other teams?

 

And your evidence is that you "seem to see a lot of great catches" from other teams? You're aware that there are 32 teams right? And that 31 of them are not the Bills? Which would mean that if everything went as expected we'd see 31x the number of catches from other teams as the Bills?

 

You did say the same thing twice, in different sentences, that you saw lots from other teams. Again, the slightest bit of thought would point out the wildly obvious reason it seems that way.

 

And then your other bit of evidence is pointing out a few times when the Bills did make those catches?

 

I mean, seriously, that's all your evidence and the thought you've put into it?

 

Jesus, this is a sad post.

Of course the Bills make some.  I said "not as many".  I said it was an observation from watching other games.  I started a thread to to see what others thought.

 

You are welcome to say you disagree or that you think the Bills make "more" then the norm. 

 

Maybe I am scarred from the Minny game, where they seemed to make too many or the Bills secondary, where it appear they have players covered, but the player makes the catch because the Bills player didn't turn his head or get his arm up.  

 

No I do not break down every team and every play, but watch a lot and see more of these "catches" watching other teams.

 

And please tell me as the your highlighted point why that may be?  It is not highlights it is having the games on and watching.  Even if highlights, I don't see as many from the Bills watching them every week.

 

Geez this is like people upset when I said I saw 5 drops vs. NE, arguing that fact and guess what there were 5 Drops.  

Edited December 11, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 

The eye test is though the Bills haven't had many this year (and let's leave Diggs out of the equation). 

 

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

So you disagree.....  Thanks for the opinion.  

 

Care to elaborate?

 

I posted my Observation and you think the Bills have made those catches.

 

Here let me help you from the OP.

 

Am I wrong to think we don't see as many by the Bills?  

 

That was the question I asked and elaborated explaining what my definition of a difficult catch is.

 

Thank you for sharing.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[Thurman#1]

8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Of course the Bills make some.  I said "not as many".  I said it was an observation from watching other games.  I started a thread to to see what others thought.

 

You are welcome to say you disagree or that you think the Bills make "more" then the norm. 

 

Maybe I am scarred from the Minny game, where they seemed to make too many or the Bills secondary, where it appear they have players covered, but the player makes the catch because the Bills player didn't turn his head or get his arm up.  

 

No I do not break down every team and every play, but watch a lot and see more of these "catches" watching other teams.

 

And please tell me as the your highlighted point why that may be?  It is not highlights it is having the games on and watching.  Even if highlights, I don't see as many from the Bills watching them every week.

 

Geez this is like people upset when I said I saw 5 drops vs. NE, arguing that fact and guess what there were 5 Drops.  

 

 

You're right, I am indeed welcome to disagree. I'm also welcome to point out immensely stupid things.

 

Here's one to repeat ... OF COURSE YOU SEE MORE FROM OTHER TEAMS. THERE ARE 31 OTHER TEAMS AND ONLY ONE BILLS. This is how statistics work, for God's sake, not to mention it's how confirmation bias works.

 

What you want from your team is efficiency, chunk plays and production. That's what the Bills give you. In spades!!!!

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

So you disagree.....  Thanks for the opinion.  

 

Care to elaborate?

 

I posted my Observation and you think the Bills have made those catches.

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

 

I would indeed care to elaborate. In fact, I did. Three other posts. Just above here.

 

There's a limit to how many times someone needs to point out that something's dumb.

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

You're right, I am indeed welcome to disagree. I'm also welcome to point out immensely stupid things.

 

Here's one to repeat ... OF COURSE YOU SEE MORE FROM OTHER TEAMS. THERE ARE 31 OTHER TEAMS AND ONLY ONE BILLS. This is how statistics work, for God's sake, not to mention it's how confirmation bias works.

 

What you want from your team is efficiency, chunk plays and production. That's what the Bills give you. In spades!!!!

 

 

I would indeed care to elaborate. In fact, I did. Three other posts. Just above here.

 

There's a limit to how many times someone needs to point out that something's dumb.

Again that is a different discussion and you are welcome to start a thread Efficiency, Chunk Plays and Production.

 

The Bills are an elite team.  They are one of the best offenses.  I watch other games and if you want me to divide by 31, I still say I see more from other teams.

 

And yes I'll now call out John Brown, dropping one at the 5 yard line.

 

And now Mackenzie.😡

Edited December 11, 2022 by Billsfan1972