Just Gonna Say It: Von Miller was very good, but not great this year.

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

The last few years have convinced me that the biggest division among humans isn't Republican vs. Democrat or urban vs. rural or religious vs. secular, but people who mark their beliefs to empirical reality and people who don't.  If you think that losing Von Miller is roughly the equivalent of losing Jerry Hughes, you're just wrong.  I don't whether it's because you're new to football, or if it's because you're addicted to wishful thinking or what, but you're objectively mistaken. 

 

Miller is a first-ballot HOFer who offensive coordinators had to account for every time he was on the field.  His presence made everybody around him better.  Now, it's not like Oliver and Groot suck or anything -- they're very good! -- but there are increasing returns to scale on pass rushers, and losing our best one is going to have an outsized effect on the overall performance of our D-line. 

Wait….isn’t the biggest difference Ranch or blue cheese? 

[BigPappy]

10 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

Yes, the cap hit will suck, but it's not like the Bills lost Nick Bosa or Matthew Judon.

 

He was playing at a Jerry Hughes level.  A great player, but on the downward slope of his career. 

 

This is survivable and I don't think it hurts the Bills Superbowl chances much if at all.

 

Now excuse me while I pull my on flame resistant suit. 

 

 I am just going to say it: If you truly believe that, then you clearly do not understand football, nor do you understand what he really brings to the table when he is on the field. 

 opposing teams game plan against him. He is a difference making because he changes how an offense schemes its plays, making sure that if he isn't being double teamed, he is al least given a chip block by a second offensive linemen. He free's up the other members of the defense to allow them to make plays. THAT is why he is a difference maker player. And even when he is being double teamed or chip blocked by a secondary O-Linemen, he still makes plays at the end of the game. That is why he called a "closer" by professional analysts. 

 

 I think maybe you should study the game a bit more so you can better understand it, or maybe listen more to the professional analysts that do and then watch and see what they mean before you run your mouth about something you don't understand. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Jerry Hughes had sack totals of 4.5, 4.5, and 2 his last three years with us.  Von had 8 sacks in 10.5 games here this year, well on pace to surpass Jerry’s 3 year sack total by the end of this season….

And we were never close to full strength on defense. It’s frustrating. Just when we’re getting a little bit healthier. 

[muppy]

Von Miller didn't ask to be injured. Its a lot of vitriol / frustration over an action HE never wanted and I am thinking deep down is as heartbroken as we are. happened.

 

In the short term this sucks. Of course he being off the active is a major blow and sucks Badly. But all I have learned and seen of Von Miller is this individual

 

will do Everything humanly and medically possible to return to the field ASAP

 

Book it.

 

as far as our DL is concerned now the rally cry must be play OUR game and let the chips fall where they may. Control what they can and play as hard fast and dominantly as possible.

 

GO BILLS

[TC in St. Louis]

I don't know.  Maybe the OP was trying to lessen the blow of losing Von.  He has had a significant impact on his teammates, and much of that was off the field.  He can still have impact.  When Jim Kelly was hurt, Frank Reich stepped up.  Von is down.  His teammates will get the job done, with him being an active coach and advocate.

[cwater10]

46 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

The last few years have convinced me that the biggest division among humans isn't Republican vs. Democrat or urban vs. rural or religious vs. secular, but people who mark their beliefs to empirical reality and people who don't.  If you think that losing Von Miller is roughly the equivalent of losing Jerry Hughes, you're just wrong.  I don't whether it's because you're new to football, or if it's because you're addicted to wishful thinking or what, but you're objectively mistaken. 

 

Miller is a first-ballot HOFer who offensive coordinators had to account for every time he was on the field.  His presence made everybody around him better.  Now, it's not like Oliver and Groot suck or anything -- they're very good! -- but there are increasing returns to scale on pass rushers, and losing our best one is going to have an outsized effect on the overall performance of our D-line. 

Great post.  There are unmistakable, and visual "measurables" that Von brings to the table that cannot just be replaced.  Period.  He is a first ballot HOF for a reason.  Just take one look at that move where he makes himself about a foot tall for a moment and goes under a block.  Who does that?  You have the physical ability to do that or not.  Almost nobody but Von does or ever has.  That very rare skill set will be missed greatly every week on the field.

 

But I also think that a purely empirical approach to a players value misses some of what coaches and GM's call "immeasurables".   There is good reason that McDermott likes to have one seasoned vet in every position group.  It has a lot to do with player development and influence in ways of professionalism and perfecting the craft.  I could offer the obvious improvement in Groot as an example of this, but that is too much of a gray area.  Groot was going to improve regardless.  For better illustration look at a guy like Epenesa, who seemed to be floundering before Von arrived.  Nobody has talked much about it, but it was funny how his return last week had a steadying impact.  He is now a steady vet, who can be relied upon.  Look even at a journeyman like Shaq Lawson.  When needed, he has been performing at remarkably high level, making one impactful play after another.  I do believe that Von's presence in that DL room has contributed to the development of every player in that room.  

 

The cap dollars invested in Von won't yield full value on the field while he is away.  I also believe that Beane and McDermott had other non empirical value in mind when they decided to invest in Von Miller.  I believe that non empirical player development influence is real, if not measurable.  And I think that in that way, the investment will continue to pay dividends while he is away from the playing field.  He will be back with the team soon.  That will have value.  That is not wishful thinking.  It is just taking a step back and taking a broad view of the bigger picture with an open mind.  We all bring different gifts to the table in our lives.  Von Miller brings a ton of gifts to The Bills table.  Some of those gifts will be unavailable for an extended time.  Many of them will remain.

[corta765]

Wherever or whoever has the worst post of the year rankings please make sure this one is in the top 5

[newcam2012]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Whatever you have to tell yourself to cope.

Why was Von signed? To close out games in the biggest moments of the game. No Hyde and No Von. This is a huge blow to the team. Let's be realistic. This talk about Von helping the young guys and being a suedo coach just doesn't cut it. Come playoff time, Bills fans will miss Von more than we know. It remains to be seen if the Bills can win it all without Von and Hyde. Certainly not optimal to lose 2 of your best players on both sides of the ball. 

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Why was Von signed? To close out games in the biggest moments of the game. No Hyde and No Von. This is a huge blow to the team. Let's be realistic. This talk about Von helping the young guys and being a suedo coach just doesn't cut it. Come playoff time, Bills fans will miss Von more than we know. It remains to be seen if the Bills can win it all without Von and Hyde. Certainly not optimal to lose 2 of your best players on both sides of the ball. 

 

Thats not what I was getting at with my post.  Its a huge loss.  The OP is deluding himself into thinking Von wasnt that big a deal so he could cope.

 

That is not to say the Bills still cant do what we all want them to do.  It did get tougher though.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Scott7975

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

33 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Why was Von signed? To close out games in the biggest moments of the game. No Hyde and No Von. This is a huge blow to the team. Let's be realistic. This talk about Von helping the young guys and being a suedo coach just doesn't cut it. Come playoff time, Bills fans will miss Von more than we know. It remains to be seen if the Bills can win it all without Von and Hyde. Certainly not optimal to lose 2 of your best players on both sides of the ball. 

it is what it is, crying about it wont work. if you are so hip on the game, you know injuries will and do occur. if it has the tragic impact you seem to imply, so be it. next man up, if it doesn't work you'll have the off season to regroup, get healthy and look for anther shot in 2023.

[newcam2012]

16 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

it is what it is, crying about it wont work. if you are so hip on the game, you know injuries will and do occur. if it has the tragic impact you seem to imply, so be it. next man up, if it doesn't work you'll have the off season to regroup, get healthy and look for anther shot in 2023.

Not crying at all. Of course injuries are part of the game. For sure it's next man up. Hopefully, it's good enough and we will know soon. 

 

I get the next year talk. It's valid and the Bills should be in contention for years. However, this was supposed to be the year. Perhaps my expectations were out of whack. I didn't anticipate the level of injuries the Bills would encounter. In my mind, injuries were probably the only real threat to stop the Bills from hoisting that Lombardi. I'm begging to think that might become reality. Hope I'm wrong. 

 

 

 

[The Red King]

Von is better in the playoffs then he is in the regular season.  That's why we got him.  This is like being kicked out of the theater after the trailers, not what you paid for.

 

Next season I say we wrap him in bubble wrap and throw him in the freezer until the playoffs.

[Aesop]

[SCBills]

He’s still very good, but not a dominant game to game EDGE, I think we can all admit that .. but he’s clutch af and we saw that in the KC game.   
 

Late in game, up by a score, and we need a stop, chances are Von comes through.   He has the ability to flip a switch that few in the NFL have.  
 

That’s what we lost.  Have to hope the collective can give us that moving forward.  

[auburnbillsbacker]

I think he was excellent.  He had close to a sack a game and made key plays at the end of games.  He even played the run pretty well.  

[Brand J]

We need to find another young Von equivalent which is next to impossible given where we draft nowadays. 

[Bray Wyatt]

what is the difference between very good and great? Is that what we are debating here? lmao

[Solomon Grundy]

13 hours ago, wppete said:

Huge lose but Rousseau has to step

up. Let’s see if he is for real or just another average player. 

What about Epenesa? Basham? Rousseau has shown promise. Can't say that much about the aforementioned. 

[Toyo321]

41 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

We need to find another young Von equivalent which is next to impossible given where we draft nowadays. 

It is really tough when you dedicate so much cap money to one play like this.  The when he gets hurt and put on IR you are now in CAP hell again.

We really should have tried to get someone much younger than VON and now we are screwed because there is no guarantee on his rehab and time to return in 2023.

Same deal with Tre.   Lots of money tied up with players trying to get back to pre injury form.  The jury is still out on Tre until he gets some more playing time on the field in game situations, to see where he truly is physically and performance wise.

[ShakAttack]

We can't replace Von.  There is no sugar coating it.  That said, we are still a pretty good defense without Von, when healthy. 

 

What we need is one of our young guys to turn into the guy that makes big plays in big moments.  I'm not counting on it, but that's what we need for the playoffs, because that situation will most likely come up.   The reason I don't count on it happening is because that is what separates the elite defenders from the rest, and most teams do NOT have a Von Miller / Aaron Donald / Micah Parsons / Myles Garrett.  

 

That said, I remember a few years ago, I believe 2019, there were a few games in which I recall our secondary closing out games with 4th quarter interceptions.  We might not find the "big moment" pass rusher on our roster anymore, but Jordan Poyer and Tre White could make the big play in the secondary......  We did not have White OR Miller last year in the playoffs obviously.  At least we will have one of them now.... I think.

 

Anyway, a couple wins against the Jets and Dolphins will certainly have us feeling like this defense can get it done against playoff caliber teams without Von Miller, and I really want to be convinced of that as a Bills fan, so.. while I may not be expecting the blowout against the Jets that Vegas is putting out there,  if we can be the first defense this season to slow down Mike White and the resurgent Jets offense,  that should go a long way towards our confidence in this "new" defense.