Pushing teammates forward. Should it be legal or not?

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

No.

[DapperCam]

Seems like a bad injury waiting to happen. Allen had been in the middle of a few of those and it makes me hold my breath.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

On one of the games I was watching yesterday, don't recall which one, the announcers were talking about this and are convinced this will be a rule change next year making it illegal.

Believe too in the SF game last drive by SF was 3rd or 4th and about 1. Tried a QB sneak he was going to be stopped well short.  But then CMC who initially lined up about 7 yards deep now comes forward with a full head of steam and drive the QB forward another 2 yards for the the first down.  Thought this play was the ultimate example of the "push play"!

[DrDawkinstein]

23 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

Seems like a bad injury waiting to happen. Allen had been in the middle of a few of those and it makes me hold my breath.

 

Far less injuries in Rugby where this is far more common. Straight line pushing is usually pretty safe. It's the open field jukes and cuts, the open field tackles, and the big hits in the passing game, where most injuries happen. Heck, more QBs are injured taking hits while standing in the pocket (Josh's elbow) than in one of these mauls.

[1ManRaid]

2 hours ago, Malazan said:

just what the game needs is another subjective call to be made by officials

 

Yeah that’s the problem, there's no way to outlaw it without opening a subjectivity can of worms.  Like if I want to try to block/push a defender who is trying to tackle the runner, I'm going to come in contact with the runner at some point.  Does glancing incidental contact with my runner count as a penalty?  Where is the line drawn?  The rule is fine as is where you can push, but not pull.  That's a fine black and white objective standard that works.

 

Subjective personal ideals about what football "should" be aren't relevant to the rules.

Edited December 5, 2022 by 1ManRaid

[ddaryl]

its a force of will.  I fail to see the concern here. 

The team with the best leverage and most strength wins, its football. 

[ticketssince61]

I think the rule will change the first time there is a serious injury from a player getting pushed around in the mass pile 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

As I've pointed a few times in this thread, it's not as if this has always been a part of football, and I'm advocating for taking something out of the sport that's always been a big part of it. That's just not the case.

For the vast majority of the history of "modern" pro football as we know it, assisting the runner has NOT been legal. It was only made legal in 2005. 

My disliking it has nothing to do with the specificity of any particular scenario. The Bills have obviously benefitted from it multiple times this season.

My dislike of it has more to do with the fact that it doesn't resemble American football to me. It resembles rugby.

I suppose in the end it comes down to the classic divide of those that want a more open, exciting, safe game, based on skill and design, and those that want a smashmouth, big-piles-of-guys-leaning-on-each-other game, that is somehow a tough, throwback harbinger to "when men were men". 

Like I said, if you go back and watch classic games from the 1980s and 1990s and 2000s, this prevalence of pushing runners isn't a thing. I think most people would agree that football was just fine during that period WITHOUT player-pushing being a part of the game.

 

Sorry bud, I just disagree.  I think if the defense can pile on a runner and try and stop his momentum, then it's fair game for the offensive players teammates to push him for further gain.  I just don't think you can say its legal to have 4 defenders trying to slow progress and momentum, and then say it's not fair for that one single offensive player to not have any of his teammates try and counter that.  

 

Just my 2 cents.  

 

And like I previously mentioned, this play has more value to a team like us with big Josh Allen where sneaks on key downs is part of our weapon arsenal.  So I personally would not want to take something away from our team that more likely benefits our current team on the field every Sunday more often than it does the opponents.  

[djp14150]

NFLPA wants a new } Pile Driver} award in contracts

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, Dr Krentist said:

Yes, when it works for us and no when it works for the other team 😆

This! 😆 

 

Anyway,  should be illegal. 

[YattaOkasan]

46 minutes ago, Logic said:

For the 10th time in this thread, I say: pushing/pulling teammates, the way it's being done right now, has NOT always been a part of football. 

Aiding a runner like it's done now was made legal in 2005. For decades before that, it was not legal.

Go back and watch games from the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. You don't see this stuff.

 

Pulling is currently illegal.  I dont know that they are calling it (distinctly remember open field pulling of an Eagles runner that didnt get called), but pulling is not allowed where as the pushing is considered legal.

[DapperCam]

39 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Far less injuries in Rugby where this is far more common. Straight line pushing is usually pretty safe. It's the open field jukes and cuts, the open field tackles, and the big hits in the passing game, where most injuries happen. Heck, more QBs are injured taking hits while standing in the pocket (Josh's elbow) than in one of these mauls.

Maybe true in rugby, but in football these guys are decked from head to toe in body armor and seem to lack basic self preservation.

[Mango]

I think the only time we have heard others complain is QB sneaks. Which I don't hate, but don't love either. 

Everything else either gets blown dead or just needs to be blown dead from the officials earlier. I don't think there is a need for a rule change. Just an earlier enforcement change. 

Slightly related: The amount of DB's that aren't turning around and seem to be just running at the WR without getting called seems to be through the roof. I don't mind the contact. I just wish they would try and play the ball a bit more. 

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

Maybe true in rugby, but in football these guys are decked from head to toe in body armor and seem to lack basic self preservation.

 

But a maul is a maul. It's a slow, hard, straight push. Not a high-speed hit to the head or knee. Not a twist or juke with their foot stuck in astro turf.

 

The amount of padding doesnt matter when you are in a simple sledding drill.

[K-9]

Not only should pushing teammates be allowed, but I believe picking teammates up and tossing them should be allowed as well. I think Dawkins and Brown could sling Little Dirty into the end zone from seven yards out.

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Not only should pushing teammates be allowed, but I believe picking teammates up and tossing them should be allowed as well. I think Dawkins and Brown could sling Little Dirty into the end zone from seven yards out.

 

I wonder if he would just automatically fly the wrong way.

Could depend on wind confusion. 🤷‍♂️

[The Frankish Reich]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I've been reading a book called How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution,

I think you mentioned this before. Anyway, thanks! It’s on my quiet (for me!) days of Christmas-to-New Years reading list. 
By the way, the answer is No. It should not be legal, just as it wasn’t in the NFL till about 2006. 
It strikes me as a really bad idea from the player safety standpoint, and a boring play anyway. 

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

The reality is, with Josh Allen as our QB, this rule is substantially more likely to help us win games then hurt us.  With his size and QB Sneak ability

So if Josh is big enough that he doesn’t need the extra push, doesn’t allowing that hurt us rather than help us? It would help a small guy like Tua more. 

[Augie]

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Correct rugby term is "Maul", thank you very much!

 

When the other team does it, I prefer to see the maul turn into a ruck! (The difference being the ball is now on the ground.) We can have a maul, and they can have a ruck! 

 

I remember the “Bush Push” in the USC Notre Dame game many years ago. I remember thinking “you can’t do THAT!”. I was with my oldest son at the Anchor Bar watching the game the day before he went to his first Bills home game. With both boys I took them when they turned 16 as a rite of passage and a nice bonding event. Very special and fond memories. 

 

BTW -  I chose the Jets game for both boys hoping for a solid win as wins are more fun. We split with the Jets on those two trips, just like we are going to do this season!  😋

 

[K-9]

48 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I wonder if he would just automatically fly the wrong way.

Could depend on wind confusion. 🤷‍♂️

The “Little Dirty Toss Left Y Banana” should only be called with the wind. 

[Rochesterfan]

Personally - I wish they would go back to making it illegal.  I hate the way it looks and then it creates these big scrums with both sides just pushing.  
 

It is also more dangerous - where a play like against the Rams - Oliver trying to make a stop and the players get steamrolled by a OL running up to drive him forward.

 

I also hate the stupid narrative of the commentators - oh look at this guy continue to drive his legs and drive the pile forward - where 3 OL gab the pile with LBs and DBs and drive it forward and they act like the RB had anything to do with it.

 

Go back to not allowing the OL to touch the player and drive it forward and they can’t pull guys either.