Pushing teammates forward. Should it be legal or not?

[Mcdermott]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

As I watched multiple games on Sunday, it was impossible to ignore.

In game after game, players were stopped by a horde of defenders, only for a group of their teammates to rally to the pile, pushing the whole mass of humanity for an extra 3-7 yards.

When it happens, it looks less like pro football and more like a rugby scrum.

I've been reading a book called How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution, and in it, I learned that American football used to look a lot like what we've seen recently: huge piles of humanity pushing on each other, fighting for every yard. Basically, it wasn't far removed from rugby when it began. Players even had loops sewn onto their pants for a time for their teammates to grab onto to either push or pull them more easily.

One of the earliest debates in football was how to spread the game out, make it less dangerous, and less of a tedious "three yards and a cloud of dust" affair. These "momentum plays", as they called them, lead to a ton of injuries, and to a frankly ugly, more brutish, less exciting form of football. The ability of a running back or receiver to gain yardage is de-emphasized in favor of the ability of a group of players to push harder than another group of players. 

After years of this ugly, rugby-style pile pushing, rule changes in football eventually disallowed it. For most of the history of modern pro football as we know it, pushing or pulling the pile in the manner we have recently seen has not been allowed. In 2006, a rule change made pushing the pile legal again (though pulling is still technically not legal). For whatever reason, it took until this season for it to really become as common and prevalent as it has. 

The question is, should it be allowed? Are these big pile-push scrums really American Football? I'm curious to know how other football fans feel about this issue.

Thank you for this. I’ve been telling people that I thought it was illegal. I didn’t realize they changed it in 2006.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yes it should be allowed.  There is no reason not to allow it IMHO, its a team sport, so teammates should be allowed to assist.  I see a lot of people complain about this, but honestly I don't get why anyone would have an issue about this is a full contact and physical game like the NFL.  

 

More importantly, this would be almost impossible to regulate if they were to make this illegal.  Those piles get crazy, and while we at home have the benefit of camera angles and cameras high above the pile of men, the refs on the ground do not.  To expect them to catch these views in these big piles is an impossible task and so many incidents would be completely subject to interpretation when the piles are crowded.  

 

And Rugby is a substantially tougher sport and its legal there.  We have already powder puffed up the NFL enough as it is.  Let it be, its been this way all through football history, no reason to change it if you ask me.  

 

There's 2 types of plays like this that I think would be very easy to legislate. 

 

1) A designed play to push a runner forward. IE what the Bills were doing earlier in the year with Gabe Davis lining up behind Allen on sneaks. 

 

2) O-line running downfield to crash into a pile when forward progress has been stopped, but refs don't want to blow it dead. 

[Alphadawg7]

43 minutes ago, Logic said:

Suppose that in the AFC championship game, the Bills only need to stop an opponent on 4th down to seal a victory.

They call the perfect defense, the defenders execute, and two linebackers converge on the opposing ball-carrier 1 yard deep in the backfield, stopping him definitively for a loss. The defenders begin to ease up just the slightest bit, figuring the play is dead and they don't want to risk a personal foul. But the refs don't blow the whistle, so three of the opponent's teammates run up to the player and push him forward for a 1st down.

Perfect playcall, perfect execution, but the subjectivity of when to blow the whistle leads to the play continuing, and the ball carrier happens to have more guys around to push him forward than the defense does to push him backward. The playcall and execution are moot, and sheer numbers and brute strength win out, with aid to referee subjectivity.

Would you still feel it's a non-issue?

 

No offense bud...But we cant change rules for every very specific what if scenario someone wants to paint that wouldn't go our way.  We can do this for every rule in the book.  

 

Just like I can say back to you what happens when its the final play in the game and we are on the 1 foot line of the goal line and Josh does a QB sneek and gets a push from Gilliam and Knox that gets him over the line to win the SB.  You going to say the Bills should have an asterisk and that not count?  

 

The reality is, with Josh Allen as our QB, this rule is substantially more likely to help us win games then hurt us.  With his size and QB Sneak ability, this is something that has already happened and will continue to happen during Josh's career where he gets a push from behind on sneaks.  

 

Not sure why you want to take that away from this team if I am being honest.  Fearing someone else could use it to seems like a bad reason to take it away when its much more likely to help us than someone else.  

 

 

[Bad Things]

I also have been noticing this more and more.

Watching that KC game, it looks like pushing the scrum is Creed Humphries specialty. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

There's 2 types of plays like this that I think would be very easy to legislate. 

 

1) A designed play to push a runner forward. IE what the Bills were doing earlier in the year with Gabe Davis lining up behind Allen on sneaks. 

 

2) O-line running downfield to crash into a pile when forward progress has been stopped, but refs don't want to blow it dead. 

 

Forward progress is a different discussion though.  That is a judgement call, and always will be.  If defensive players can pile on to prevent forward progress on a single runner, why can't the offensive people pile on to help create more forward progress would be my question.  Doesn't seem fair to say defenders can do it and the offense can't.  

[Logic]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No offense bud...But we cant change rules for every very specific what if scenario someone wants to paint that wouldn't go our way.  We can do this for every rule in the book.  

 

Just like I can say back to you what happens when its the final play in the game and we are on the 1 foot line of the goal line and Josh does a QB sneek and gets a push from Gilliam and Knox that gets him over the line to win the SB.  You going to say the Bills should have an asterisk and that not count?  

 

The reality is, with Josh Allen as our QB, this rule is substantially more likely to help us win games then hurt us.  With his size and QB Sneak ability, this is something that has already happened and will continue to happen during Josh's career where he gets a push from behind on sneaks.  

 

Not sure why you want to take that away from this team if I am being honest.  Fearing someone else could use it to seems like a bad reason to take it away when its much more likely to help us than someone else.  

 

 

As I've pointed a few times in this thread, it's not as if this has always been a part of football, and I'm advocating for taking something out of the sport that's always been a big part of it. That's just not the case.

For the vast majority of the history of "modern" pro football as we know it, assisting the runner has NOT been legal. It was only made legal in 2005. 

My disliking it has nothing to do with the specificity of any particular scenario. The Bills have obviously benefitted from it multiple times this season.

My dislike of it has more to do with the fact that it doesn't resemble American football to me. It resembles rugby.

I suppose in the end it comes down to the classic divide of those that want a more open, exciting, safe game, based on skill and design, and those that want a smashmouth, big-piles-of-guys-leaning-on-each-other game, that is somehow a tough, throwback harbinger to "when men were men". 

Like I said, if you go back and watch classic games from the 1980s and 1990s and 2000s, this prevalence of pushing runners isn't a thing. I think most people would agree that football was just fine during that period WITHOUT player-pushing being a part of the game.

[bigduke6]

its all fun and games until a star QB or RB gets hurt for the season in these push piles.    when the injuries start to pile up,  it'll be removed from the game.

 

are these piles in the spirit of the game?  or are they just something thats unfairly skewed towards the offense,   and some find exciting.

trust me,  it wont be exciting when it goes against us and costs us a game.

 

one thing the NFL isnt,  is being proactive when it comes to things such as this.

Edited December 5, 2022 by bigduke6

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Logic said:

As I watched multiple games on Sunday, it was impossible to ignore.

In game after game, players were stopped by a horde of defenders, only for a group of their teammates to rally to the pile, pushing the whole mass of humanity for an extra 3-7 yards.

When it happens, it looks less like pro football and more like a rugby scrum.

I've been reading a book called How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution, and in it, I learned that American football used to look a lot like what we've seen recently: huge piles of humanity pushing on each other, fighting for every yard. Basically, it wasn't far removed from rugby when it began. Players even had loops sewn onto their pants for a time for their teammates to grab onto to either push or pull them more easily.

One of the earliest debates in football was how to spread the game out, make it less dangerous, and less of a tedious "three yards and a cloud of dust" affair. These "momentum plays", as they called them, lead to a ton of injuries, and to a frankly ugly, more brutish, less exciting form of football. The ability of a running back or receiver to gain yardage is de-emphasized in favor of the ability of a group of players to push harder than another group of players. 

After years of this ugly, rugby-style pile pushing, rule changes in football eventually disallowed it. For most of the history of modern pro football as we know it, pushing or pulling the pile in the manner we have recently seen has not been allowed. In 2006, a rule change made pushing the pile legal again (though pulling is still technically not legal). For whatever reason, it took until this season for it to really become as common and prevalent as it has. 

The question is, should it be allowed? Are these big pile-push scrums really American Football? I'm curious to know how other football fans feel about this issue.

 

I'm going to have to pick this book up! I think part of the dangers of early college football was that it was a continuous game like rugy, there was no down or distance. But even worse there were no limits to the amount of players. So the home school was at a huge advantage, and could literally have hundreds of players on the field at once. 

 

The modern rules of down and distance, and # of players on the field only came into effect after Teddy Roosevelt threatened to cancel college football following the several seasons that saw 20-25 students die each year. 

 

 

[RobbRiddick]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

As I watched multiple games on Sunday, it was impossible to ignore.

In game after game, players were stopped by a horde of defenders, only for a group of their teammates to rally to the pile, pushing the whole mass of humanity for an extra 3-7 yards.

When it happens, it looks less like pro football and more like a rugby scrum.

I've been reading a book called How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution, and in it, I learned that American football used to look a lot like what we've seen recently: huge piles of humanity pushing on each other, fighting for every yard. Basically, it wasn't far removed from rugby when it began. Players even had loops sewn onto their pants for a time for their teammates to grab onto to either push or pull them more easily.

One of the earliest debates in football was how to spread the game out, make it less dangerous, and less of a tedious "three yards and a cloud of dust" affair. These "momentum plays", as they called them, lead to a ton of injuries, and to a frankly ugly, more brutish, less exciting form of football. The ability of a running back or receiver to gain yardage is de-emphasized in favor of the ability of a group of players to push harder than another group of players. 

After years of this ugly, rugby-style pile pushing, rule changes in football eventually disallowed it. For most of the history of modern pro football as we know it, pushing or pulling the pile in the manner we have recently seen has not been allowed. In 2006, a rule change made pushing the pile legal again (though pulling is still technically not legal). For whatever reason, it took until this season for it to really become as common and prevalent as it has. 

The question is, should it be allowed? Are these big pile-push scrums really American Football? I'm curious to know how other football fans feel about this issue.

Yeah, I was going to post about that as well last night. At the goal line it's never bothered me but it is getting a little annoying when you see it on almost every running play now. 

 

But then again if the Bills have a 4th and short and Singletary gets a little help I guess I won't complain. Like so many other things it's only annoying when other teams do it

[jaybee]

Glad someone else said this first.  I think it sucks.  It turns a skill position into mass humanity fat guys pushing someone.  Get rid of it.  They will, I'd bet on it.  This Would be a good poll question.  (are there polls on this site ?)

 

 

1 hour ago, Logic said:

As I watched multiple games on Sunday, it was impossible to ignore.

In game after game, players were stopped by a horde of defenders, only for a group of their teammates to rally to the pile, pushing the whole mass of humanity for an extra 3-7 yards.

When it happens, it looks less like pro football and more like a rugby scrum.

I've been reading a book called How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution, and in it, I learned that American football used to look a lot like what we've seen recently: huge piles of humanity pushing on each other, fighting for every yard. Basically, it wasn't far removed from rugby when it began. Players even had loops sewn onto their pants for a time for their teammates to grab onto to either push or pull them more easily.

One of the earliest debates in football was how to spread the game out, make it less dangerous, and less of a tedious "three yards and a cloud of dust" affair. These "momentum plays", as they called them, lead to a ton of injuries, and to a frankly ugly, more brutish, less exciting form of football. The ability of a running back or receiver to gain yardage is de-emphasized in favor of the ability of a group of players to push harder than another group of players. 

After years of this ugly, rugby-style pile pushing, rule changes in football eventually disallowed it. For most of the history of modern pro football as we know it, pushing or pulling the pile in the manner we have recently seen has not been allowed. In 2006, a rule change made pushing the pile legal again (though pulling is still technically not legal). For whatever reason, it took until this season for it to really become as common and prevalent as it has. 

The question is, should it be allowed? Are these big pile-push scrums really American Football? I'm curious to know how other football fans feel about this issue.

 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Forward progress is a different discussion though.  That is a judgement call, and always will be.  If defensive players can pile on to prevent forward progress on a single runner, why can't the offensive people pile on to help create more forward progress would be my question.  Doesn't seem fair to say defenders can do it and the offense can't.  

 

It is a related discussion at least, even if there is some difference. I'd like to see refs be a bit quicker with the whistle. 

 

Is it fair that offense can push a pile forward to gain additional yards, but if a defense pushes a pile backwards the spot of the ball is forward progress ? 

 

Defenders aren't launching themselves into a pile with reckless abandon like many O-line do. They are targeting the runners arms to try and force a fumble. The goal is to force a fumble or bring the runner down. For Offense the only goal is push the pile forward 

 

 

[The Wiz]

My thought on this goes back to a game from 2010 (pretty sure that was the year) against the Raven.  It's a different perspective for sure but fits in the topic.

 

We went into OT and Nelson caught a pass, was lifted by the defender(s) and they were pushing on both offense and defense.  He has held up in the air and seemingly not moving at all but they never blew the whistle for forward progress. Then, he fumbled the ball from not being able to go to the ground because of it and Ravens kicked a FG to win the game.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by The Wiz

[Mikie2times]

I think it has a place because as the OP pointed out, footballs origins are from rugby. It allows for an advantage to be had to a team that is better prepared and plays with higher awareness. Which again, I don't see an issue with. 

[Shake_My_Head]

I don't like it.  It seems contrary to the spirit of the game.   Like the rule on field goals that prohibits using a teammate for a boost.

[QLBillsFan]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

No, it is getting out of control, especially by Wyatt Teller and the Browns yesterday.  Someone is going to get hurt by it, it looks like a rugby scrum.

Your mean the best G in the NFL? No way 😂 

In general I think it’s ok. One less thing for the refs to be deciding. But I think the momentum stop has to be factored. That’s the key to it not being totally abused. If the runner is stood up for a second and not moving blow the whistle. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, wjag said:

Until it's officially not, it's okay.  The problem is, it is changing the refs call on momentum stops.  Hard to fairly legislate it now.  Does feel like it's not in the spirit of the game though

I hate it. It has basically become a rugby scrum. You should not be allowed to pull or push a fellow player to advance position. And yes the refs are at fault for taking forever to blow their damn whistles. 

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Suppose that in the AFC championship game, the Bills only need to stop an opponent on 4th down to seal a victory.

They call the perfect defense, the defenders execute, and two linebackers converge on the opposing ball-carrier 1 yard deep in the backfield, stopping him definitively for a loss. The defenders begin to ease up just the slightest bit, figuring the play is dead and they don't want to risk a personal foul. But the refs don't blow the whistle, so three of the opponent's teammates run up to the player and push him forward for a 1st down.

Perfect playcall, perfect execution, but the subjectivity of when to blow the whistle leads to the play continuing, and the ball carrier happens to have more guys around to push him forward than the defense does to push him backward. The playcall and execution are moot, and sheer numbers and brute strength win out, with aid to referee subjectivity.

Would you still feel it's a non-issue?

It's a non-issue. Play through the whistle. Pushing piles has been a part of football as long as I can remember. It's just getting more coverage now because of the special QB sneak rule. I remember it happening downfield my whole life.

[YattaOkasan]

Is there any data to support that this type of play is less safe.  Or is it just anecdotes from a bygone era?  If the rule was changed in 2005 I would think we have sufficient data.

[Logic]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

It's a non-issue. Play through the whistle. Pushing piles has been a part of football as long as I can remember. It's just getting more coverage now because of the special QB sneak rule. I remember it happening downfield my whole life.

For the 10th time in this thread, I say: pushing/pulling teammates, the way it's being done right now, has NOT always been a part of football. 

Aiding a runner like it's done now was made legal in 2005. For decades before that, it was not legal.

Go back and watch games from the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. You don't see this stuff.

 

[Sestak4ever]

I believe aiding a runner should be illegal, as it used to be. Someone is going to get severally injured. Once that happens then they will change the rule back. Hopefully they have the foresight to change it before someone gets hurt.