Roughing the punter

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

Thanks for posting.  I tried to watch frame by frame and it looks like the Patriot defender may have been blocked into Martin but the picture is so small and the quality is not great.  It's tough to tell.

either way it seems to be the refs interpretation and didn’t look wildly out of line - if it takes a great video from the right angle going frame by frame, I’ll not fault a ref generally 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, MPT said:

 

That play gets called almost every time. The defender's goal in that situation is to get through the block and try to block the punt. The only thing keeping them from constantly diving at punters' legs is this rule and it's enforced liberally because it's so easy to injure a punter doing that, which ended up happening to Martin. 

 

The Patriots got called for running into the kicker last week, in fact, despite barely touching the punter's kicking foot. The play we're talking about this week is described verbatim in the rule as being the more serious infraction and subject to a personal foul.

They aren’t calling it. He was being blocked. How hard is this. Look at the difference between the 2 plays. Patriots player is untouched.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[QLBillsFan]

2 hours ago, MPT said:

 

The defender bull rushed right past Johnson into Martin. Johnson was trying to block him away from Martin and got bulldozed out of the way. Please explain how someone blocks a defender into the punter with his back to the punter.

Well I watched the play. He blocks then turns and throws the guy down. Refs are bad at OL holding and PI but on this 100% of the time it’s not a penalty. 

5 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

In fact i asked why that wasn’t call as a penalty, because i didn’t know the reason. 

Because it wasn’t a penalty 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, MPT said:

 

The defender bull rushed right past Johnson into Martin. Johnson was trying to block him away from Martin and got bulldozed out of the way. Please explain how someone blocks a defender into the punter with his back to the punter.

 

The 2 make contact and Johnson pulls and slides off - pulling the defender down as he disengages o run down field.  
 

You easily see the Patriot player coming straight up the field and as he comes off Johnson he is sideways and rolling.  The action of Johnson blocking and disengaging causes the player to hit Martin.

 

I have no issue with it not being called.  
 

This happens where guys engage briefly and the offense guy uses the momentum to toss/fling a guy passed and head downfield. 
 

I actually was surprised they did not call Johnson for a hold on the play instead.

 

You can clearly see at the 0:02 second mark on the video on Page 1 - Johnson engages and turn sideways with a hand under the shoulder and flings the Patriot.  I also think the Patriot uses that momentum to purposely roll into the punter because he knows it will not draw a flag.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[MPT]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They aren’t calling it. He was being blocked. How hard is this. Look at the difference between the 2 plays. Patriots player is untouched.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, QLBillsFan said:

Well I watched the play. He blocks then turns and throws the guy down. Refs are bad at OL holding and PI but on this 100% of the time it’s not a penalty. 

Because it wasn’t a penalty 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The 2 make contact and Johnson pulls and slides off - pulling the defender down as he disengages o run down field.  
 

You easily see the Patriot player coming straight up the field and as he comes off Johnson he is sideways and rolling.  The action of Johnson blocking and disengaging causes the player to hit Martin.

 

I have no issue with it not being called.  
 

This happens where guys engage briefly and the offense guy uses the momentum to toss/fling a guy passed and head downfield. 
 

I actually was surprised they did not call Johnson for a hold on the play instead.

 

You can clearly see at the 0:02 second mark on the video on Page 1 - Johnson engages and turn sideways with a hand under the shoulder and flings the Patriot.  I also think the Patriot uses that momentum to purposely roll into the punter because he knows it will not draw a flag.

 

 

 

Look, guys, I'm sorry to rain on your referee fan club parade. The defender had one goal on this play: get to the punter and try to block the kick. He put a lot of effort into it and actually succeeded in doing so. It was just too late. There was no "toss" or "throw" by Johnson; he got absolutely manhandled and pushed to the side. When the defender disengages from him to dive at Martin, Johnson is just left standing there because he had zero control over the defender.

 

Just for your reference, this is the part of the rule you guys are concerned with:

 

"6. occurs because a defender is pushed or blocked (causing a change of direction) into the kicker"

 

Show me where the defender makes anything but a straight intentional path to the punter. You can't, because there's video of him doing just that. Show me where Johnson pushes or blocks the defender into Martin. You can't, because he's obviously attempting (although failing) to block the defender away from Martin. 

 

This is like some Stockholm syndrome stuff you guys got going on. "Oh no, the defender couldn't have possibly done what he did even though that's exactly what he was trying to do! It's actually our fault they missed it!"

[QLBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

 

 

Look, guys, I'm sorry to rain on your referee fan club parade. The defender had one goal on this play: get to the punter and try to block the kick. He put a lot of effort into it and actually succeeded in doing so. It was just too late. There was no "toss" or "throw" by Johnson; he got absolutely manhandled and pushed to the side. When the defender disengages from him to dive at Martin, Johnson is just left standing there because he had zero control over the defender.

 

Just for your reference, this is the part of the rule you guys are concerned with:

 

"6. occurs because a defender is pushed or blocked (causing a change of direction) into the kicker"

 

Show me where the defender makes anything but a straight intentional path to the punter. You can't, because there's video of him doing just that. Show me where Johnson pushes or blocks the defender into Martin. You can't, because he's obviously attempting (although failing) to block the defender away from Martin. 

 

This is like some Stockholm syndrome stuff you guys got going on. "Oh no, the defender couldn't have possibly done what he did even though that's exactly what he was trying to do! It's actually our fault they missed it!"

And your wrong. Your coming to a preconceived conclusion. The refs got it right. 

[cba fan]

On 12/2/2022 at 5:01 PM, Italian Bills said:

3rd quarter, 11’52” left: why the refs didn’t call a penalty for the contact against our punter well after he kicked the ball away ? 

how about when Mac Jones passed the ball in end zone.

ball was clearly on the end zone line as he threw it.

THAT'S A *****"N SAFETY!!

ref said play started in field of play. WTF they called intentional grounding. Intentional grounding is not a call unless player passes the ball. Mac passed the ball when his arm and ball was in end zone. WTH!

Edited December 4, 2022 by cba fan

[MPT]

8 hours ago, QLBillsFan said:

And your wrong. Your coming to a preconceived conclusion. The refs got it right. 

 

Your poorly spelled post finally convinced me! You're absolutely right, despite having nothing to back up your argument.

[maddenboy]

22 hours ago, maddenboy said:

I researched it a few months ago but currently too lazy to find the link.  maybe tmrw.

 

Roughing the kicker:  when you hit the plant leg

 

Running into the kick:er  when you hit the 'up' leg

 

In the old days, it used to be a matter of degree or something.  in the discretion of the ref.   But that changed a good while ago.

Follow-up:

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-or-running-into-the-kicker/

[Rochesterfan]

9 hours ago, MPT said:

 

 

 

Look, guys, I'm sorry to rain on your referee fan club parade. The defender had one goal on this play: get to the punter and try to block the kick. He put a lot of effort into it and actually succeeded in doing so. It was just too late. There was no "toss" or "throw" by Johnson; he got absolutely manhandled and pushed to the side. When the defender disengages from him to dive at Martin, Johnson is just left standing there because he had zero control over the defender.

 

Just for your reference, this is the part of the rule you guys are concerned with:

 

"6. occurs because a defender is pushed or blocked (causing a change of direction) into the kicker"

 

Show me where the defender makes anything but a straight intentional path to the punter. You can't, because there's video of him doing just that. Show me where Johnson pushes or blocks the defender into Martin. You can't, because he's obviously attempting (although failing) to block the defender away from Martin. 

 

This is like some Stockholm syndrome stuff you guys got going on. "Oh no, the defender couldn't have possibly done what he did even though that's exactly what he was trying to do! It's actually our fault they missed it!"

 

Sorry, but this is totally incorrect.

 

Again watch the video on page 1.  Clearly at 0:02 second Johnson turns sideways and his right arm is under the Pats players arm/pads.  He clearly is tossing the player down.  At that point the Pats player is not even facing the punter - he is 100% facing Johnson on his left and his shoulders and head are starting downwards with his lower body coming up.

 

The player is clearly turned from a straight on rush into Johnson to being twisted sideways and rolling into Martin.

 

I would agree with you if the Pats player came straight through and his arms and head were moving straight toward the punter, but that is not what happens.  He makes contact with Johnson and is turned completely sideways and he rolls into Martin.  Honestly watching the play - I don’t think his intent was to try to block the kick - it was get into contact with Johnson and blocking him from heading downfield.

[QLBillsFan]

2 hours ago, MPT said:

 

Your poorly spelled post finally convinced me! You're absolutely right, despite having nothing to back up your argument.

Sorry, you are wrong. The argument has been made clear by 99% of those in this discussion. You choose to continue to insist you are right. Player A is blocked/ thrown/engaged in some way by player B into player B’s punter. No penalty. It’s really a simple back up of my argument. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by QLBillsFan

[BuffaloBob]

46 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

Sorry, you are wrong. The argument has been made clear by 99% of those in this discussion. You choose to continue to insist you are right. Player A is blocked/ thrown/engaged in some way by player B into player B’s punter. No penalty. It’s really a simple back up of my argument. 

I'm sorry, but I think YORE both wrong.  😄  I think that it's the defender's own momentum that causes him to end up where he is.  He was not redirected in any way.  I also do not see any holding on Johnson's part or that he threw him down.  Johnson hits him and immediately disengages with him and it is Johnson's abrupt disengagement to his right that causes the Patriot player to rotate in the direction of Johnson and fall forward to the ground when the resistance provided by Johnson is abruptly removed  He is neither blocked into, nor pulled down into Martin. 

 

At the same time, I think it's a close call.  You could argue that it was Johnson's sudden disengagement that led to the rusher's loss of control of his momentum.  I agree with NewSaint.  It could have gone either way and so not a bad call in the moment.

Edited December 4, 2022 by BuffaloBob

[ngbills]

Used to alway be called. Now rarely see it.