The obsession w/ how Josh Allen runs

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

On that run against the Lions (not the last one setting up the field goal attempt at the end, but the long run earlier in the game) the hit he took was completely unnecessary. I don't care how skilled you are doing something dangerous, you might be the best free rock climber in the world, but there is still a risk every time you climb.

 

He broke off like a 30 yard run, had three defenders in boxing him in, it was over. Slide or dive forward a tiny bit and end the play. Instead he cut back, tried to take on 3 defenders and got hit really hard.

 

Just totally unnecessary. That play was over, he crushed that rep, but it was over.

 

Kind of like when you're out with friends (thinking back sentimentality to my 20s and early 30s) and you had a great night, but instead of going home, you decide to go to one more bar trying to keep the magic going while making plans to workout in the morning.

 

Fast forward to you waking up super hung over at like 11am and feeling super guilty even though there's nothing to feel guilty about... the night was over, just go home.

 

Or this hyper specific but definitely hypothetical situation where you go to one more place before going home and really want to play guitar. But you live in a pretty small house in South Florida at the time and you know she has to work in the morning and would wake her up. So being the super kind person you are you decide to go outside on your backyard deck and play some quiet acoustic guitar while recording yourself playing with your handy field recorder.

 

Suddenly you wake up not knowing where you are to your dog barking and you're wife telling your dog to chill out while she opens the slider to let the dog out in the morning. Suddenly you hear a little genuine scream, followed by laughter when she realizes that the seemingly homeless person who squatted on your deck the night before is actually your idiot husband who passed out with a guitar in his hands.

 

And you have it all recorded because your recorder was recording for the last five hours...hypothetically.

 

Moral of the story? Do what Costanza did and go out on a high note. Don't care how good he is at running and taking/giving out hits...literally zero valid reasons for a qb that has superbowl mvp aspirations to take that hit after a 30 yard game changing run to try and get an extra five yards at the 50 yard line. Slide!

 

LOL love your stories.  Hypothetical I'm sure.

 

You're exactly right about some of Allen's runs.  I remember that one vs. the Lions.  Then there was the stupidity against the Pats where he was surrounded by red shirts and launched himself up into the air.  Damned near got his head taken off, in a totally legal hit no one could question.  Even Allen said "that was bad, that one hurt".

 

I think some of Allen's poor late game decision making that has cost us games, just may be influenced by taking those hits and getting his "bell rung" a little bit.  Needing a breather to regroup mentally is one reason McDermott repeatedly says he wants an RB rotation, but the QB doesn't get a breather - so maybe he should act a bit less like an RB.  I hope Allen got a stern talking-to at halftime.

[PatsFanNH]

5 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

This is the same thought process I had when Brady reached his mid 30’s and thought “he is getting old, soon his career will end.”. We get you want Josh to leave Buffalo sooner than later, I would to if I was a Pats fan. 

Actually I don’t! I actually like Allen! I love good football what I want is my team be good enough to actually make Allen and the Bills WORK for the win. Right now they don’t even have to break a sweat. Lol

 

I honestly believe using him like a RB when he is super talented as a QB. (Unlike Fields and Jackson) will make his career shorter. I also feel like that after seeing the Pats hit him like a penyatta last game. No QB can survive being hit like that.. ya ya he loves it but sometimes a coach has to protect a player from himself. 

[Beck Water]

19 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

A coping? Or perhaps we see how other QBs who run like Allen have fared. The fact is their careers were shortened because of injury and they couldn’t adapt their game to be a pocket passer. Could Allen buck the trend? Maybe but it’s not coping point out his style has not fared well in the NFL. 

 

We'll see.

 

In fairness, I will say that most of the punishment Allen took against the Pats last night was IN the pocket, standing in to make a throw with a rusher bearing down on him, or maneuvering behind the LOS to throw.

 

Judon and Uche are legit

[SirAndrew]

8 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Actually I don’t! I actually like Allen! I love good football what I want is my team be good enough to actually make Allen and the Bills WORK for the win. Right now they don’t even have to break a sweat. Lol

 

I honestly believe using him like a RB when he is super talented as a QB. (Unlike Fields and Jackson) will make his career shorter. I also feel like that after seeing the Pats hit him like a penyatta last game. No QB can survive being hit like that.. ya ya he loves it but sometimes a coach has to protect a player from himself. 

Josh’s running is crucial to our success, and I don’t think we can afford to eliminate that part of his game this season. I do agree that we need to build a team and game plan in the near future that doesn’t rely so heavily on Allen’s running. I think people are looking at the risks in the wrong way. We keep hearing how easy it is to get injured in the pocket, and all the ways season ending injuries occur. I’m not concerned about season ending injuries as much as cumulative damage over years. Cumulative damage is exactly what shortens running back careers. That type of damage doesn’t necessary result in diagnosable injury, but rather wear and tear that reduces a players effectiveness. 

 

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, JimmyNoodles said:

Here’s my understanding of injuries that happen because of contact… you have to have contact. The more hits you take whether in the pocket, scrambling, or getting coffee will increase your risk for getting hurt. Josh is an amazing player, a totally unique player in my 50+ years of watching football, but he will get hurt (and already has been hurt) if he doesn’t make smarter decisions when avoiding contact is an option. Sometimes you can’t and that’s the game. But when you can, get down. You see receivers do it regularly. The coaching staff is complicit too. I hate the designed runs with him carrying the ball. Be smart=play longer. When he dives over three guys to score in the Super Bowl, I’ll be all for it. Until then avoid hits. 

 

I will say this.  Harbaugh said about Lamar Jackson, "when he runs, he's in control".  There's something to the point that when Josh runs, he has more control over how he gets hit vs standing in the pocket where he's vulnerable when he's setting to throw.

[PatsFanNH]

9 hours ago, SoMAn said:

Who are you talking about?
Elway? Young? Rodgers? Favre? Tarkenton? Flutie?  

What scrambling QBs had a career shortened by their penchant for taking off when the opportunity arose? 
Newton? He’s the basis of your argument? He played 11 seasons. Not exactly a short stay. He’s not playing because he’s physically unable. It’s because he’s a lousy passer and a washed up diva. 

So, who are the scrambling QBs whose careers were shortened by their style of play? 

 

Elway — Great stats. Didn’t win 1 SB till he stopped running around and they used a true RB. (0-3 with his “athleticism) Also only scrambled when the play broke down

 

Young — 1 SB win with a STACKED team. Only scrambled when the play broke down

 

Farve — 1 SB win and by far the most over rated QB of all time.  Again rarely scrambled and I believe has the NFL record in sacks.. no idea why you used him!

 

Rodgers — 1 SB AND HE NEVER EVER had a play where he ran the ball unless it was a QB sneak or one of those play action naked bootlegs at the goal line.

 

The last 2 won nothing and as the rest never had a play called for then just to run.

 

You see your examples were poor. Until recently NO COACH would run their QB on purpose in fear of losing them. That’s a new thing with usually a QB with bad mechanics and poor accuracy. Like Josh Allen first year ir two, not now.  

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

Josh’s running is crucial to our success, and I don’t think we can afford to eliminate that part of his game this season. I do agree that we need to build a team and game plan in the near future that doesn’t rely so heavily on Allen’s running. I think people are looking at the risks in the wrong way. We keep hearing how easy it is to get injured in the pocket, and all the ways season ending injuries occur. I’m not concerned about season ending injuries as much as cumulative damage over years. Cumulative damage is exactly what shortens running back careers. That type of damage doesn’t necessary result in diagnosable injury, but rather wear and tear that reduces a players effectiveness.

 

Exactly.  As someone said, "your body adds up all the bruises and bumps you take in your 20s, and sends you a bill in your 30s".

 

I don't think anyone wants to eliminate the running part of Allen's game.  We just want him to be smarter about it - don't fight for "every blade of grass he can get", slide or go out of bounds more.

 

[PatsFanNH]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Exactly.  As someone said, "your body adds up all the bruises and bumps you take in your 20s, and sends you a bill in your 30s".

 

I don't think anyone wants to eliminate the running part of Allen's game.  We just want him to be smarter about it - don't fight for "every blade of grass he can get", slide or go out of bounds more.

 

I am not talking about him taking off when the play breaks down. I think calling a QB run outright with him is going to shorten his career. I agree slide or go out of bounds is crucial all it takes is one bad hit and his cannon arm gets destroyed.. it happened to Peyton, and Newton just to name two that I can think of. So protecting himself when he can is needed. 

[JoshAllin]

I was looking at some highlights to see what the comparison was about and most of Cam's hits were behind the line or him sliding after a run followed by viscous helmet hits. Allen on the other hand goes one on one vs the defenders and then evaluates what he should do and usually ends up with the right move

[PatsFanNH]

4 minutes ago, motorj said:

I was looking at some highlights to see what the comparison was about and most of Cam's hits were behind the line or him sliding after a run followed by viscous helmet hits. Allen on the other hand goes one on one vs the defenders and then evaluates what he should do and usually ends up with the right move

Look at all of Cam’s hits he got wrecked even in preseason games. I saw that when he scrambled against the Pats and Hightower hit him and had him almost land on his head.. man never slid. I have never seen Allen slide either but I have not seen a lot of his games.

[machine gun kelly]

His injuries have predominantly been in the pocket and he’s really only missed what four games in his career.  I too get nervous when he does it, but it’s such a threat, it allows Josh to throw better.

 

What I’ve seen especially in NE is a dynamic versatile offense.  Cam was a banger and inaccurate.  Josh has slid a lot more these last couple of years and has tried to scramble to them throw at the last second like that freakish TD throw to Gabe Davis.

 

Cam Newton was never in the same league from a skills development to Allen.  Before anyone brings up Cam won an MVP, Josh should’ve won twice.
 

I love the MTC guys Friday made a point comparing Allen to Mahomes and Kirwan stated who is more critical to the team, and. His answer was Allen.  He had Mahomes a 1B, but the offense runs through Josh in Buffalo.  He did also add he is aware of the turnovers, but then he brought up what the Bills would be without Josh.

 

I think the Cheats game is exactly what this team, and Allen needed like last year with the Bucs, and the year before with the Cards.  It galvanized the team both years.   

[Captain Hindsight]

21 hours ago, Success said:

I tend to peruse other boards after our games, and it is incredibly repetitive - the whole narrative that "Allen will never last running  like that - he'll wash out just like Cam Newton."  

 

Obviously, it's a cope for fans who don't have a top-tier QB.  But, is it true?

 

After spending a few years worrying about the hits JA takes, I'm a total convert:  let Allen be Allen.  He plays the game like a kid, and that's what makes him so unique.  When big plays are needed, it's like he's in the backyard again, and I honestly think he thrives on the contact and mixing it up w/ the defense he's facing.  

 

It's a statistical fact that most QB's are injured in the pocket.  I think the Cam Newton comparisons are bogus - Cam doesn't have the same skillset as JA at all.  If it ever does come to a point where Allen has to change his style, he can be a pocket passer all day and still top 5 in the league.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I think it’s similar to thinking this is the year Brady finally retires 

[Beck Water]

36 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

I am not talking about him taking off when the play breaks down. I think calling a QB run outright with him is going to shorten his career. I agree slide or go out of bounds is crucial all it takes is one bad hit and his cannon arm gets destroyed.. it happened to Peyton, and Newton just to name two that I can think of. So protecting himself when he can is needed. 

 

It depends.  On some of the designed QB runs he's been ridiculously open.  Designed QB runs up the middle, yeah, I'm with you.

[henry jones]

I mean, let’s face it.  JA is the entire team right now.  We go as far as he goes.  Until they can get him better protected in the pocket and develop a consistent run game, he has to run and take some hits in order for this team to win.  Longevity wise it’s probably not the best option, but for now, it is what it is.

[PatsFanNH]

17 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

I think it’s similar to thinking this is the year Brady finally retires 

I don’t think Brady is ever going to retire! Lol actually I wouldn’t be shocked if he signed a 1 day contract to retire a Patriot next year…  I mean he does have a huge Fox contract to go to.  Although I’d love him be the Pats OC. Lol

[Since1981]

I have agree the JA17 hits I saw that made me say “ooooo” were in the pocket where his head bangs. Running, he at least can mostly manage the collision himself. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Since1981

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Kind of off topic but am watching the Big-12 Conference tittle game.  Bad throw was made by the TSU QB for an Int.  Kirk H is announcing the game, just back from Thursday night Bills-Pats game.  His comment was unless you're Josh Allen, you don't attempt to make that pass.

[Solomon Grundy]

On 12/2/2022 at 3:25 PM, Success said:

I tend to peruse other boards after our games, and it is incredibly repetitive - the whole narrative that "Allen will never last running  like that - he'll wash out just like Cam Newton."  

 

Obviously, it's a cope for fans who don't have a top-tier QB.  But, is it true?

 

After spending a few years worrying about the hits JA takes, I'm a total convert:  let Allen be Allen.  He plays the game like a kid, and that's what makes him so unique.  When big plays are needed, it's like he's in the backyard again, and I honestly think he thrives on the contact and mixing it up w/ the defense he's facing.  

 

It's a statistical fact that most QB's are injured in the pocket.  I think the Cam Newton comparisons are bogus - Cam doesn't have the same skillset as JA at all.  If it ever does come to a point where Allen has to change his style, he can be a pocket passer all day and still top 5 in the league.

 

Any thoughts?

 

You're exactly right!! Cam got his from the amounts of hits he took from the pocket. The late hits that were never called

3 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

I think it’s similar to thinking this is the year Brady finally retires 

Can the Bills play his team just once more before he goes!! Gotta get the taste out of the mouth

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

I am not talking about him taking off when the play breaks down. I think calling a QB run outright with him is going to shorten his career. I agree slide or go out of bounds is crucial all it takes is one bad hit and his cannon arm gets destroyed.. it happened to Peyton, and Newton just to name two that I can think of. So protecting himself when he can is needed. 

Are you saying Peyton’s arm got destroyed when he took off running? What bad luck. The one rush he had he gets his arm ripped to shreds. 
 

I’ll continue to worry about the hits Allen takes in the pocket with his arm in awkward angles over ones he can brace himself for on the run. 
 

Allen might tear his ankle, leg or knee up one of these days on a run. He plays long enough it will happen, not a question of if.

 

But a lower body injury to Allen won’t be career ending. Worst case scenario he’ll perform like prime Big Ben. A hobbled Allen in terms of his running ability would still be Big Ben’s best running ability.

[AuntieEm]

6 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

Josh’s running is crucial to our success, and I don’t think we can afford to eliminate that part of his game this season. I do agree that we need to build a team and game plan in the near future that doesn’t rely so heavily on Allen’s running. I think people are looking at the risks in the wrong way. We keep hearing how easy it is to get injured in the pocket, and all the ways season ending injuries occur. I’m not concerned about season ending injuries as much as cumulative damage over years. Cumulative damage is exactly what shortens running back careers. That type of damage doesn’t necessary result in diagnosable injury, but rather wear and tear that reduces a players effectiveness. 

 

 

   Plus the toll of getting injured can take the love of the game and diminish it a la Luck.  I think McBeane will build the wall to protect Allen and then Allen will really bloom.