The obsession w/ how Josh Allen runs

[Bills!Win!]

I’ve been told that most injuries occur when a player lets up on a play. Allen goes all in. I’m more worried about defenders getting hurt when he plows over them 

[Matt_In_NH]

I truly believe Allen can be an effecting and great QB without running as much.  I think Newton had to do it to be effective.  I also think their mental/psychological makeup are completely different in Allen's favor.

[Rc2catch]

22 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

No, he is trying to force things to happen instead of being chill and letting them happen naturally.

 

Take the check down instead of trying for the deep play when it's not there. Pinning a team inside their 10 leads to you scoring next like 80%+ of the time. Let the other people on your team help you.

 

They have good amd dangerous players if given the ball in space, let them do stuff.

 

I don't buy the lack of YAC is because of accuracy. I think it's cause he's not taking easy throws and instead is fitting balls into windows that are tiny and defenders are swarming right away. It's amazing and he shouldn't stop doing that, but a 5 yard check down with 15 yards YAC is way less risk and the same outcome as a 20 yard laser between 3 defenders with no YAC.

 

Situational awareness and playing as a point guard to ensure all players are engaged. Then in the fourth quarter, if needed go wild. Look at how Chris Paul plays point guard in the NBA.

This is probably one of the best posts I’ve seen to agree with. Almost 100% spot on with my opinions. 

[JohnNord]

55 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Josh initiates most contact outside of the pocket. As long as he doesn't take an illegal hit, I'm really not worried about him getting significantly injured running the ball any more than I am him dropping back for a pass. He's 6-5 245. I'm more worried for the defender.

We learned that Josh can be injured just as easily throwing from the pocket than he can running the football.  I feel like for the most part, he’s been smarter about running and getting down that during his first two years in the league

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

I wouldn't be so sure.

 

He took a tough helmet to helmet hit in the GB game near the goal line.  He looked like he got his bell rung, but jumped back up like nothing happened.

 

Also, his last run in the Detroit game (trying to get 10 more yards), he took a really hard hit on the lower leg while running out of bounds.

 

That was scary !

 

A little lower and that hit would have been right on the knee !

[stevewin]

1 hour ago, Success said:

I tend to peruse other boards after our games, and it is incredibly repetitive - the whole narrative that "Allen will never last running  like that - he'll wash out just like Cam Newton."  

 

Obviously, it's a cope for fans who don't have a top-tier QB.  But, is it true?

 

After spending a few years worrying about the hits JA takes, I'm a total convert:  let Allen be Allen.  He plays the game like a kid, and that's what makes him so unique.  When big plays are needed, it's like he's in the backyard again, and I honestly think he thrives on the contact and mixing it up w/ the defense he's facing.  

 

It's a statistical fact that most QB's are injured in the pocket.  I think the Cam Newton comparisons are bogus - Cam doesn't have the same skillset as JA at all.  If it ever does come to a point where Allen has to change his style, he can be a pocket passer all day and still top 5 in the league.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I find myself sometimes saying to myself (or out loud) "Geez Josh Get Down" after he takes someone on - but then later at critical moments in the game when they need yards find myself saying "Forget it - just let Josh run for it and go beast mode"   I am a hypocrite

[Gugny]

Here's my problem with how Josh Allen runs ...

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

I agree with the OP entirely.
 

For the umpteenth time, Cam Newton’s career wasn’t shortened because he ran too much and took too many hits while running, it was shortened by acute shoulder injuries to his throwing shoulder. Running Josh is a weapon that few teams possess and he should have free reign to do so. His mere threat to run the ball forces defenses to account for that aspect of the game which effects other things a defense wants to do. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be smart about it; he should slide and look to avoid unnecessary contact more than he does. But he’s a running threat and he needs to continue to be.

[Success]

46 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

A coping? Or perhaps we see how other QBs who run like Allen have fared. The fact is their careers were shortened because of injury and they couldn’t adapt their game to be a pocket passer. Could Allen buck the trend? Maybe but it’s not coping point out his style has not fared well in the NFL. 

 

It's coping.  MOST opposing fans don't care what happens to JA - maybe a few, but it's not like "gosh, I wish he'd protect himself more!"  

 

What are some names of QB's at Allen's level whose careers have been shortened?  Cam Newton is the main one everyone cites - but Allen's game is NOT that similar to Newton's. Even in their running style.  But Newton would still be a viable QB if he had some of JA's other skills.  He just can't throw the ball that accurately or well.

 

I can't really think of other top QB's who had to retire early or anything, or who dropped off a cliff later in their career because of running more than average.  Maybe Romo?

 

[Simon]

He took a lot of hits in the first half of that game last night; the fact that he took fewer in the 2nd half was mostly a function of the Bills breaking out the ground game but was stark enough that he may have had a firm talking to at halftime.

[GoBills808]

They need to run him less without question

[HomeskillitMoorman]

1 hour ago, Success said:

I tend to peruse other boards after our games, and it is incredibly repetitive - the whole narrative that "Allen will never last running  like that - he'll wash out just like Cam Newton."  

 

Obviously, it's a cope for fans who don't have a top-tier QB.  But, is it true?

 

After spending a few years worrying about the hits JA takes, I'm a total convert:  let Allen be Allen.  He plays the game like a kid, and that's what makes him so unique.  When big plays are needed, it's like he's in the backyard again, and I honestly think he thrives on the contact and mixing it up w/ the defense he's facing.  

 

It's a statistical fact that most QB's are injured in the pocket.  I think the Cam Newton comparisons are bogus - Cam doesn't have the same skillset as JA at all.  If it ever does come to a point where Allen has to change his style, he can be a pocket passer all day and still top 5 in the league.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

It's the low hits that I'm more worried about. You can be as tough as nails but all it takes is one bad hit to the knee to blow it all up. 

 

At the same time, I do know what you're saying that it's part of his game and a huge benefit to us...but there are plays you see where he could slide instead of taking the big hit for a couple of more yards that aren't even going to determine a first down or not. 

 

I think there's a middle ground between what he's doing and completely taking it away from him that he can still find that can mitigate his risk at least a little bit more. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by HomeskillitMoorman

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, Success said:

 

It's coping.  MOST opposing fans don't care what happens to JA - maybe a few, but it's not like "gosh, I wish he'd protect himself more!"  

 

What are some names of QB's at Allen's level whose careers have been shortened?  Cam Newton is the main one everyone cites - but Allen's game is NOT that similar to Newton's. Even in their running style.  But Newton would still be a viable QB if he had some of JA's other skills.  He just can't throw the ball that accurately or well.

 

I can't really think of other top QB's who had to retire early or anything, or who dropped off a cliff later in their career because of running more than average.  Maybe Romo?

 

Andrew Luck is the comp

[Success]

Just now, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

It's the low hits that I'm more worried about. You can be as tough as nails but all it takes is one bad hit to the knee to blow it all up. 

 

At the same time, I do know what you're saying that it's part of his game and a huge benefit to us...but there are plays you see where he could slide instead of taking the big hit for a couple of more yards that aren't even going to determine a first down or not. 

 

I think there's a middle ground between what he's doing and completely taking it away from him that he can still find that can mitigate his risk at least a little bit more. 

 

I do agree on the "middle ground" part.  

 

Last night, the only play where I might have told him to be more cautious was the 10-yard run in the redzone, where he did his usual leaping UP thing instead of just going down.

 

The hardest hit he took was in the pocket, when protection broke down quickly.  He got slammed on one play where his guard was down.  That's something that happens to any QB in the league when the protection isn't there.

 

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Andrew Luck is the comp

 

That's appropriate - but I think a lot of his issue was more just not having protection and taking a ton of sacks, as well.

 

[97bills]

1 hour ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

I'm on the fence. I want Josh to be Josh - but I'm not gonna be happy when he has a season ending injury. 

 

As far as "It's a statistical fact that most QB's are injured in the pocket." That strikes me as similar to "most car accidents happen within a few miles of your home". Seems like it's statistically inevitable - that's where you spend most of your time driving. Plus most QB's will slide to avoid contact when out of pocket. Josh gets nutty outside the pocket, either initiating/embracing contact or trying to hurdle someone. I love it, but at some point he will end up missing time.

Yep last night he said that hurdle didn’t fill good. 

[K-9]

45 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

They need to run him less without question

He ran eight times last night, some of which were scrambles and not designed runs. How much less than twice a quarter should he run considering the kind of unique running weapon he is at the position? I think the number of designed runs might be effected by the number of hits he’s taking in the pocket during the course of a game and last night definitely called for less considering the hits he took. But the fact is, he just doesn’t take a lot of hits when his line is healthy or playing an inferior front, unlike the Pats*** who have a very good D line. 

[Tim Tindale]

2 hours ago, Success said:

 

It's coping.  MOST opposing fans don't care what happens to JA - maybe a few, but it's not like "gosh, I wish he'd protect himself more!"  

 

What are some names of QB's at Allen's level whose careers have been shortened?  Cam Newton is the main one everyone cites - but Allen's game is NOT that similar to Newton's. Even in their running style.  But Newton would still be a viable QB if he had some of JA's other skills.  He just can't throw the ball that accurately or well.

 

I can't really think of other top QB's who had to retire early or anything, or who dropped off a cliff later in their career because of running more than average.  Maybe Romo?

 

RGIII… I know this take is likely to be met with derision, but I thought EJ’s career was headed in the right direction until Tashaun Gipson (had to look it up) blasted his knee on a scramble as he was heading out of bounds in a night game in Cleveland. He was never the same QB after that, in my opinion. 
 

Obviously, every player and situation is different, but I can’t get that EJ injury out of my head when I see defensive players hitting Josh low.  

 

19 hours ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

I once heard he threw a ball to Fred Jackson to take it to the 1 and kick the field goal winner!  1st time the Bills beat the Pats in 87 years!

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Tim Tindale

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

He ran eight times last night, some of which were scrambles and not designed runs. How much less than twice a quarter should he run considering the kind of unique running weapon he is at the position? I think the number of designed runs might be effected by the number of hits he’s taking in the pocket during the course of a game and last night definitely called for less considering the hits he took. But the fact is, he just doesn’t take a lot of hits when his line is healthy or playing an inferior front, unlike the Pats*** who have a very good D line. 

I won't pretend to know the number of runs called or otherwise per game that's best. I just think exposing him to as little punishment as possible in service of prolonging his career and avoiding injury should be at the forefront when deciding how best to attack a particular defense. He can already make you defend every part of the field with his arm.

 

Avoiding sacks and picking up first downs on scrambles obviously is one of his talents that shouldn't be discouraged. But if I was the HC or the OC or whoever makes those kinds of decisions I would remove the designed QB runs from the playbook.

[HardyBoy]

2 hours ago, Success said:

 

It's coping.  MOST opposing fans don't care what happens to JA - maybe a few, but it's not like "gosh, I wish he'd protect himself more!"  

 

What are some names of QB's at Allen's level whose careers have been shortened?  Cam Newton is the main one everyone cites - but Allen's game is NOT that similar to Newton's. Even in their running style.  But Newton would still be a viable QB if he had some of JA's other skills.  He just can't throw the ball that accurately or well.

 

I can't really think of other top QB's who had to retire early or anything, or who dropped off a cliff later in their career because of running more than average.  Maybe Romo?

 

 

I mean sure, Chad Pennington was a viable qb after he hurt his shoulder because he had the skills Allen has in terms of anticipation and pre snap reads, but was a shadow of himself before his shoulder injury.

 

Peyton Manning with the Broncos, he lost his arm strength because of nerve damage, but was able to remain effective for a time.

 

Both of those qbs were clinically accurate though and more relevantly their injuries did not impact their accuracy, just arm strength.

 

It's less the leg injuries with Allen that worry me, unless it's real bad it would likely "only" derail a season. Shoulder injuries though, those are career killers.

 

Newton got hit a ton out of the pocket, but a ton in the pocket extending plays. Ben Roethlisberger took a ton of hits extending plays. 

 

Allen needs to take the check down, stop extending random plays in random early quarters of random regular season games. He needs to let his teammates be involved.

[Success]

7 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

I mean sure, Chad Pennington was a viable qb after he hurt his shoulder because he had the skills Allen has in terms of anticipation and pre snap reads, but was a shadow of himself before his shoulder injury.

 

Peyton Manning with the Broncos, he lost his arm strength because of nerve damage, but was able to remain effective for a time.

 

Both of those qbs were clinically accurate though and more relevantly their injuries did not impact their accuracy, just arm strength.

 

It's less the leg injuries with Allen that worry me, unless it's real bad it would likely "only" derail a season. Shoulder injuries though, those are career killers.

 

Newton got hit a ton out of the pocket, but a ton in the pocket extending plays. Ben Roethlisberger took a ton of hits extending plays. 

 

Allen needs to take the check down, stop extending random plays in random early quarters of random regular season games. He needs to let his teammates be involved.

 

I get what you're saying - but Manning certainly wasn't a running QB.  His injuries were just part of the game, and that any QB could potentially face. It's a physical game no matter how hard you try to avoid hits.

 

Newton took a lot of punishment, and as I recall, a large part of that was refs not really giving him calls that many other QB's would get.  I think a few years back, it was more assumed that a running QB didn't deserve as many calls.  I think that's changed.

 

Pennington is a good example - but it felt like he was hurt all the time.