I’m kind of Over the Hines Experiment

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Apologies for the delayed responses, my fellow fans, yet life happens quickly these days:

 

I appreciate the many perspectives brought up regarding Hines, his development, usage, offensive role and many other items brought into the mural that is this situation.

 

I will admit that my own perception and expectations regarding what I thought he could be in this offense by now weighs heavily on what I’ve seen so far. Maybe these were unfair expectations.

 

I really am surprised how many rose-colored opinions followed my OP. I imagine not as friendly of thoughts would have followed if that game resulted in an L, or looked different in offense. I am looking specifically at his results with the ball in his hands. Measurable production. 
 

He had a nice play on the 3rd down check-down.

 

Regarding the “eye candy” he brought to our team, I don’t think the influence was from HIS motion but instead from THEE motion. Often play action and motions, regardless of personnel, have the desired result in moving defensive bodies in ways that are advantageous to your team. Does McKenzie get equal defensive respect on his jet motion? Probably. 

 

As I stated, this has nothing to do with his special teams role and everything to do with he usage on offense. I am over the trade because it hasn’t materialized in a manner that I had hoped it to.
 

It’s frustrating looking around the league, and then back at our own squad, and seeing players acquired/drafted/brought in on the offensive side of the ball making a large, sustained impact for their team while we load up on defensive. I was pumped that we finally swung at adding a piece, and so far I don’t see anything that would make me think his role on offense will be all that impactful in the weeks ahead.

 

I hope I am completely wrong. I hope he makes me eat these words. I am a Bills fan and want to see them succeed, and right now I just don’t think that Nyheim Hines is the offensive piece that will help us do that.

 

P.S. I have nothing against the player, man, teammate, etc. By many accounts he is a good dude, teammate and history of performance. It was one of the reasons I was excited about the trade.

 

P.S.S. Disagree with me again, and I’ll haunt your dreams!! 😁🥸🤪😱😳😎

Edited December 8, 2022 by EmotionallyUnstable

[YattaOkasan]

On 12/5/2022 at 9:54 AM, todd said:

I think we need to remember that many players have called the offense complex. It probably impacts RBs quite a bit when it comes to protection, routes and blocking schemes that likely change in the fly. Let’s not rush to judgement.

Agreed. Would also add practice as joe Marino has mentioned. Came before the jets game so not much there as he learns playbook, no reps with josh before Vikings game, crazy short blizzard/flu week before browns, short week before lions. Before pats game was his first normal week with the team. I agree his numbers haven’t been where I want them but in context of how much time on task he has had I am still hopeful for growth. 

[Xwnyer]

He is happy to be with the Bills was disappointed in the sweep calls since the receivers missed blocks.   This is from a close source of his he wants to be making a bigger impact than just being the motion guy.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

8 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

He is happy to be with the Bills was disappointed in the sweep calls since the receivers missed blocks.   This is from a close source of his he wants to be making a bigger impact than just being the motion guy.

Are you his barber?

 

Instacart delivery driver? 
 

Financial adviser? 
 

Local bar keep? 

[The Frankish Reich]

11 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

He is happy to be with the Bills was disappointed in the sweep calls since the receivers missed blocks.   This is from a close source of his he wants to be making a bigger impact than just being the motion guy.

Dunkirk Don, is that you?

And if it is, are you enjoying the millions you made by buying up land near the new Bills stadium in Darien Lake?

[Einstein's Dog]

33 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I will admit that my own perception and expectations regarding what I thought he could be in this offense by now weighs heavily on what I’ve seen so far. Maybe these were unfair expectations.

 

 has nothing to do with his special teams role and everything to do with he usage on offense. I am over the trade because it hasn’t materialized in a manner that I had hoped it to.
 

It’s frustrating looking around the league, and then back at our own squad, and seeing players acquired/drafted/brought in on the offensive side of the ball making a large, sustained impact for their team while we load up on defensive. I was pumped that we finally swung at adding a piece, and so far I don’t see anything that would make me think his role on offense will be all that impactful in the weeks ahead.

 

Yes, you had unfair expectations.  Adjust them.   It was a 6th round pick and an inactive Moss.  You shouldn't be expecting much.  If Hines works out be pleasantly surprised.

 

Why are you discounting his special teams role?  it counts.  He's doing more than Moss did.  And your over the trade because you the patience of a gnat?  Great.

 

Who are you seeing that was traded for basically a 6th round pick that is doing more?  Robinson for the Jets was inactive.  This is not a CMC deal. 

 

And the Bills are still looking, if there is any truth to the OBJ rumors.  Might give you another chance to set unrealistic expectations to be filled in an unreasonable timeframe.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Just now, Einstein's Dog said:

Yes, you had unfair expectations.  Adjust them.   It was a 6th round pick and an inactive Moss.  You shouldn't be expecting much.  If Hines works out be pleasantly surprised.

 

Why are you discounting his special teams role?  it counts.  He's doing more than Moss did.  And your over the trade because you the patience of a gnat?  Great.

 

Who are you seeing that was traded for basically a 6th round pick that is doing more?  Robinson for the Jets was inactive.  This is not a CMC deal. 

 

And the Bills are still looking, if there is any truth to the OBJ rumors.  Might give you another chance to set unrealistic expectations to be filled in an unreasonable timeframe.

I’ve acknowledged the bolded numerous times. My gripe is with the offensive role.

 

The larger issue is that we are grasping at straws to try and surround the offense with talent to get us to the promised land. My desire to find an impactful player on offense has everything to do with those expectations. 
 

I’ve adjusted them. Hence, I’m over it! 
 

And yes, my patience is limited. There are only so many “get-right” opportunities left this year. As I meantioned in my OP, I think it’s entirely plausible his role on offense could/should be shelved and revisited next year. 
 

FWIW, I am not on the OBJ fanboy bandwagon. 

[Einstein's Dog]

8 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I’ve acknowledged the bolded numerous times. My gripe is with the offensive role.

 

The larger issue is that we are grasping at straws to try and surround the offense with talent to get us to the promised land. My desire to find an impactful player on offense has everything to do with those expectations. 
 

I’ve adjusted them. Hence, I’m over it! 
 

And yes, my patience is limited. There are only so many “get-right” opportunities left this year. As I meantioned in my OP, I think it’s entirely plausible his role on offense could/should be shelved and revisited next year. 
 

FWIW, I am not on the OBJ fanboy bandwagon. 

Okay, I get it.  My point on the special teams was that alone is pretty close to justifying the 6th round pick.  So, it's not a terrible deal already with the potential to get better.  If it doesn't get better I don't think Hines will be around next year though because he is scheduled to get over $4M.

 

The deal was a little weird to begin with because Hines is kind of redundant to Cook.  I guess they couldn't get a banger which is what I thought they could use.  I guess that's why my expectations were considerably lower.  Hines to me was/is a backup insurance piece to Cook.

 

I am now on the OBJ bandwagon.  IMO that could be adding a huge piece for 2023.  And a teaser possibility of playoff reinforcement.

[Xwnyer]

10 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Dunkirk Don, is that you?

And if it is, are you enjoying the millions you made by buying up land near the new Bills stadium in Darien Lake?

Fools like you make this place so enjoyable.   I know a relative of his but hey have your childish fun.

[Warriorspikes51]

With the kind of speed Hines and Cook have....it's really inexcusable to not design and execute the screen game..... 

It kills defenses every week and Buffalo never seems interested in doing it 

[The Red King]

We use him on screens.  We cannot block for screens.  Doesn't matter who runs it, the RB is devoured immediately as "blockers" run right past opposing players like they were slalom poles.

[Xwnyer]

33 minutes ago, The Red King said:

We use him on screens.  We cannot block for screens.  Doesn't matter who runs it, the RB is devoured immediately as "blockers" run right past opposing players like they were slalom poles.

Watch the replays of the two sweeps same thing happened.  LT and RT and receivers missed blocks 

[Beck Water]

15 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I will admit that my own perception and expectations regarding what I thought he could be in this offense by now weighs heavily on what I’ve seen so far. Maybe these were unfair expectations.

 

I don't remember your responses to the trades, but in general - my impression is that when the trade was announced, some here were just giddy, as though we'd added our own Christian McCaffrey who was just under-utilized on that Colts team.  That turned to indignation when the Bills were not immediately carving him out a big role.

 

I looked at his body of work and felt that we'd added a player who could contribute immediately as a PR/KR, and who could potentially be an important depth piece backing up Cook and McKenzie.  We've actually used him a bit more than I expected.

 

So IMO, Yes, you had unreasonable expectations for the contributions of a guy who was the #4 or #5 player on a poor team.

 

15 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

He had a nice play on the 3rd down check-down.

 

He did, and it was an important play - it showed that he has grasped that with Josh Allen, you can not, ever, until the whistle blows, assume that the play is over, and he is able to stay alert and adapt.

 

15 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Regarding the “eye candy” he brought to our team, I don’t think the influence was from HIS motion but instead from THEE motion. Often play action and motions, regardless of personnel, have the desired result in moving defensive bodies in ways that are advantageous to your team. Does McKenzie get equal defensive respect on his jet motion? Probably. 

 

McKenzie has taken some snaps from the backfield.  He's been modestly successful - 9 rushes last season, 5.2 ypa; 6 rushes this season so far, 6 ypa.  But the 5'7", 170 lb (maybe) McKenzie isn't going to hold up to a lot of that and is certainly not capable of trucking people and fighting for yards. 

 

Hines is an actual running back, and while he's not much taller, he has a stockier almost 200 lb frame, that can challenge more believably as an RB.

 

15 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

As I stated, this has nothing to do with his special teams role and everything to do with he usage on offense. I am over the trade because it hasn’t materialized in a manner that I had hoped it to.

 

I think that's a "you" problem

 

15 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

It’s frustrating looking around the league, and then back at our own squad, and seeing players acquired/drafted/brought in on the offensive side of the ball making a large, sustained impact for their team while we load up on defensive. I was pumped that we finally swung at adding a piece, and so far I don’t see anything that would make me think his role on offense will be all that impactful in the weeks ahead.

 

The first part of this is a shared feeling here, FWIW.  I felt this Spring that the Bills had under-invested in Offense, especially OL and WR.  I think we're following a philosophy that Beane learned in Carolina, to count on a great QB to raise the level of the offense and overcome the deficiencies of the OL.  It didn't take them over the top to a Superbowl in Carolina, it arguably shortened the lifespan of that great QB, and I'd like to see Beane evolve from it.

 

But if you look at the Hines addition as part of a pattern, it fits right in with that.  Another team (*cough*) adds an RB in the 1st, a C in the 2nd, and a WR in the 2nd 3 successive years - we can debate the merits of specific picks, but it shows a commitment to investment on offense.  A different team (*cough cough*) adds a WR in the 2nd after its QB in the 1st; a 2nd WR in the 1st last year. 

 

In the same 3 drafts, the Bills add an RB in the 3rd, a WR in the 4th, and OL in the 3rd, and a WR in the 5th.  We traded back before drafting an RB in the 2nd round, this season. 

 

The theme is, "we're not drafting at Nordstrom for offense; we can draft our offense at Kohls, same thing but cheaper"

 

So apply that to Hines.  He wasn't contributing as a top-tier player in Coltsland, so why expect him to show up big here?  He's a budget add.

 

Now, if Epenesa and Rousseau and Basham step up and come on strong and carry us to a championship, and if Cook starts contributing strongly, I will gladly return to this post and positively GOBBLE my plate of Crow Pie.

 

15 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

P.S.S. Disagree with me again, and I’ll haunt your dreams!! 😁🥸🤪😱😳😎

 

Post here, get disagreed with here.

[Beck Water]

18 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

Watch the replays of the two sweeps same thing happened.  LT and RT and receivers missed blocks 

 

You might find it interesting to look up posts by @HoofHearted in this thread, which include play diagrams and explanations of the play being run.

 

A lot of the discussion centers around a play where Josh kept the ball, but my understanding is the sweep play handoff to Hines was the same design.  In that play, the DE is unblocked and it's the job of the RB to evade him.

 

The WR may have missed blocks on the sweep, but our WR have been missing blocks on sweeps for years now.  So if you know someone who knows Hines, tell him he has to put his mind to it that to make something happen, he's going to have to evade and make yards on his own there, because there is no magic switch to be flipped that will enable our WR to consistently hit on those blocks.   Davis and Kumerow can block in the backfield or chip inline like a TE.  The rest of our WR even McKenzie can block downfield, but there's something about the blocking needed on a sweep or bubble screen we just don't Get.  Maybe we don't practice it enough.  Maybe there are "tells" that let the D diagnose and they're ready for it.  IDK.  But the sweeps haven't been working well all season. 

 

Hines is getting them instead of McKenzie IMO because the Bills hope he can break the first tackle and get some yards, like an RB.

 

IMO.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[todd]

I think it is important to realize that maybe Beane is building a team not for the games being played now, but playoffs this year and next year.

[JoshAllin]

On 12/1/2022 at 11:52 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

It seemed like every sweep, handoff, or target was sniffed out, or went no where.

This was one of the things bills fans wanted, speedy RB's to run the edges and those runs don't even work with Cook or Hines, so it's not the RB's fault here. Once they find something that works things could get interesting

[LeGOATski]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:31 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Are you his barber?

 

Instacart delivery driver? 
 

Financial adviser? 
 

Local bar keep? 

None. His friend ran into Hines in the aisle of a CVS. Hines showed him some cool juke moves.

On 12/8/2022 at 4:38 AM, Xwnyer said:

Fools like you make this place so enjoyable.   I know a relative of his but hey have your childish fun.

This was a perfect opportunity to show off your sense of humor.

[Jay_Fixit]

Hines wasn’t really good with Indy and he’s not good with Buffalo. Really not difficult to comprehend.

[dakrider]

Hines and Shakir are both 2 weapons the Bills don't utilize enough.  Between those two, McKenzie and Cook out of the backfield, the Bills should be uncoverable every play.

[prissythecat]

Bump