I’m kind of Over the Hines Experiment

[LABILLBACKER]

On 12/2/2022 at 8:51 AM, Logic said:

Even if he was JUST a quality, dependable kick and punt returner and 4 phase special teams player, he'd have been a good acquisition based on how little the Bills gave up to get him.

The fact that he has started to be involved in multi-RB packages on offense and is acting as pre-snap motion/eye candy and outlet receiver option for Josh on RPOs is a bonus. And there's also the matter of that little thing called depth. If Singletary or Cook have to miss a few snaps or a few games, I'll feel MUCH better knowing we have Hines in the fold.

Just stop wasting wide sweeps where no one blocks. His very first game he was open on a wheel route and Josh missed him.

[Xwnyer]

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Just stop wasting wide sweeps where no one blocks. His very first game he was open on a wheel route and Josh missed him.

Agreed each sweep the QR missed blocks and our tackles are getting destroyed

[Beck Water]

On 12/2/2022 at 12:30 PM, HoofHearted said:

Sure. It was Q Counter Read. The read on this can change based on how they are teaching the concept, but the end to the sweep side is going to be unblocked either way. I don't have a replay of that exact play, but they ran the same concept at 2:14 in this highlight clip.

 

 

Ugh Thank You Sir Can I Have Another, I NEVER wanted to see a highlight of that particular Allen run play again.  Delighted he got up and threw a TD but we could easily have lost him to the INC and the Blue Tent of Doom on that Play

 

No, sincerely, thank you.  But why is the end unblocked in that play?  There must be a reason, since it's apparently part of the design.

 

On 12/2/2022 at 12:52 PM, Freddie's Dead said:

 

You and posters like you make this board a worse place.  Instead of offering your opinion so we can have a discussion, you condescend not once, but twice, telling me I don't understand.   But you can't be bothered to explain yourself, you just question my intelligence ad hominem.  I told you what I saw twice, but you won't even explain your point of view once.  Go away, troll.

 

You know, I asked @HoofHearted for some explanation without going on the offensive, and he offered one.  I asked for some clarification on a point, and it wouldn't surprise me if I got some either.

 

And this isn't the first, or the second, or the third, time I've done that and received what I asked for.

 

That's not a troll.   Someone who isn't as polite as you'd like or doesn't respond as you'd like, doesn't make a troll.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

23 hours ago, Orlando Tim said:

The guy has been on the roster less than a whole month and they are slowly working him in, I would expect him to get about 8 touches a game come playoff time. 

 

Considering he's already had 10 touches against the Browns and 23 against NE, I think you may be seeing him more and sooner.

[Eastport bills]

Hines has to be used strategically. His skills are obvious if you watched him at Indy. He is a solid returner and should be effective in the safety valve dump off scenarios. He’s playing more each game and I see him getting more comfortable with his role. He will be a factor before it’s over.

[JerseyBills]

On 12/1/2022 at 11:52 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Idk about ya’ll but I was excited about the additional of Nyheim Hines.

 

It seems they’ve slowly, and finally started to work him into the game plan. He was heavily involved early, and then McKenzie started to take over those snaps.

 

It seemed like every sweep, handoff, or target was sniffed out, or went no where. I wonder if there was some sort of formation tell, or they keyed into him based on personnel or usage, but it just flat out stunk.

 

I’m not a huge McKenzie guy, but age again had a solid game. 
 

Im kind of over this trade. Let him return kicks and get touches here and there, and revisit this in the off-season.

 

Singletary is my guy. Let’s let him and Cook take it the rest of the way. 

Hines is a RB2-3 

We knew this 

He'll get more plays as the year goes on. I love the Cook/Hines package, could be lethal going forward.

Dude is an A1 Returner and had  great YAC off an improvised play from Josh.

He just has 2 legit backs in front of him. Motor is looking like a must re sign. Him and Cook are great compliments to each other. Hines/Cook are nearly identical 

 

Look at James Robinson of the Jests. They gave up a 6th or potentially a 5th and he was inactive last gm. The expectations for Hines was ridiculous from day 1. 

 

I'm perfectly happy with a 6th and a useless Moss even if he just returns but that Cook/Hines set will continue to grow and be lethal. 

 

Relax

[HoofHearted]

27 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

No, sincerely, thank you.  But why is the end unblocked in that play?  There must be a reason, since it's apparently part of the design.

Two possible options. They are either reading him for the give/pull read OR they think they can just out-run him on the sweep. As the read option game has evolved more and more teams are going to the later in that situation to eliminate a second defender from being able to make a play. Essentially playing 11 on 9 football.

 

The last section in this article (Q Counter Sweep Read) is talking about the exact concept we ran (we just did it out of two back instead of using a jet motion to get to it). There it talks about reading the end, but more and more teams are going to what I talked about earlier and reading that Mike in that diagram, blocking the concept the same, and assuming they're back will outrun the end on the sweep. You see it a ton at the college and high school level.

[Billz4ever]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:52 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Idk about ya’ll but I was excited about the additional of Nyheim Hines.

 

It seems they’ve slowly, and finally started to work him into the game plan. He was heavily involved early, and then McKenzie started to take over those snaps.

 

It seemed like every sweep, handoff, or target was sniffed out, or went no where. I wonder if there was some sort of formation tell, or they keyed into him based on personnel or usage, but it just flat out stunk.

 

I’m not a huge McKenzie guy, but age again had a solid game. 
 

Im kind of over this trade. Let him return kicks and get touches here and there, and revisit this in the off-season.

 

Singletary is my guy. Let’s let him and Cook take it the rest of the way. 

Are you asking for Moss back too? 😁

[Putin]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:54 PM, Bills!Win! said:

Just wait until we play a good defense in the divisional round at high mark stadium. We will be throwing him screens left and right. He is our secret weapon 

Screens what is that ?? 

[WotAGuy]

6 minutes ago, Putin said:

Screens what is that ?? 

That’s where the RB drifts out to the flat followed by 4 defenders and Josh throws it at the RB’s feet. 

[Beck Water]

14 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Two possible options. They are either reading him for the give/pull read OR they think they can just out-run him on the sweep. As the read option game has evolved more and more teams are going to the later in that situation to eliminate a second defender from being able to make a play. Essentially playing 11 on 9 football.

 

The last section in this article (Q Counter Sweep Read) is talking about the exact concept we ran (we just did it out of two back instead of using a jet motion to get to it). There it talks about reading the end, but more and more teams are going to what I talked about earlier and reading that Mike in that diagram, blocking the concept the same, and assuming they're back will outrun the end on the sweep. You see it a ton at the college and high school level.

 

OK, so in the example at 2:14 in the Pats highlights thing, if it were really a handoff to Hines, would it have been Cook's job to at least get in the end's way if not block him?

 

Ugh Ugh Ugh I hate watching how Josh gets hit on that run but I digress....it seems to me we may have some trouble with these, as I think we do with screens, in part because of how teams have come to fear Josh's escapability and the threat he poses to break long runs himself.  I'm pretty sure Belicheck and his assistants were banging it into their defenders heads all week that they better contain Josh no matter what. 

 

Is that a concern?  If so, is there any way we can "sell it" better?

 

And thanks for the link, BTW, very helpful.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Beck Water

[HoofHearted]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, so in the example at 2:14 in the Pats highlights thing, if it were really a handoff to Hines, would it have been Cook's job to at least get in the end's way if not block him?

 

Ugh Ugh Ugh I hate watching how Josh gets hit on that run but I digress....it seems to me we may have some trouble with these, as I think we do with screens, in part because of how teams have come to fear Josh's escapability and the threat he poses to break long runs himself.  I'm pretty sure Belicheck and his assistants were banging it into their defenders heads all week that they better contain Josh no matter what. 

 

Is that a concern?  If so, is there any way we can "sell it" better?

 

And thanks for the link, BTW, very helpful.

Depends on who they are reading. In that it's pretty clear Josh was reading the 50 backer (#27) which means they are counting on Hines to beat the defensive end to the edge and Cook's job is to pick up the next most dangerous threat coming inside/out to the ball carrier. If #27 flows with backfield flow then Josh will pull it, but if #27 flows with the pulling OL Josh will give it. It's a really nice misdirection play and you put at least one defensive player in conflict.

 

I didn't understand your second question. What is it exactly you think we have trouble with?

[Beck Water]

23 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Depends on who they are reading. In that it's pretty clear Josh was reading the 50 backer (#27) which means they are counting on Hines to beat the defensive end to the edge and Cook's job is to pick up the next most dangerous threat coming inside/out to the ball carrier. If #27 flows with backfield flow then Josh will pull it, but if #27 flows with the pulling OL Josh will give it. It's a really nice misdirection play and you put at least one defensive player in conflict.

 

I didn't understand your second question. What is it exactly you think we have trouble with?

 

OK, I see that...#27 is clearly not sold on the backfield flow so Josh keeps it.

 

I'm going to struggle to frame the question I have in a way that's answerable, so please bear with me while I flail around trying to frame this

 

I think we have trouble with HB screen plays, and I think nobody buys them in part because of the run threat Josh poses.  The DL isn't going to crash wholeheartedly into the backfield after Josh and let the RB release and catch the pass, because they're too worried that Josh will keep the ball, evade them in the backfield, and they'll be chasing his shoesoles down the field.  TOf course, I could be incorrect, and it could be that we have "tells" or errors in execution because we don't practice them enough, or reasons I haven't  thought of.

 

But let me step back to Josh's read...#27 isn't sold on the backfield flow, and initially I think I see his eyes drawn to the backs.  But very quickly, his eyes and #91 both shift to Josh, who is clearly the guy they're more concerned about.  I'm wondering if it will be realistic for us to ever sell the backer on the backfield flow, because they're always mindful of Josh.  If you're that backer, what would make the sale to you?

 

Does that make any sense?

 

PS that's a GREAT website by the way.  Very clear explanations.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Beck Water

[Putin]

3 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

That’s where the RB drifts out to the flat followed by 4 defenders and Josh throws it at the RB’s feet. 

No wonder we never run that s*** 

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, Putin said:

No wonder we never run that s*** 

My question is why do we have four defenders there on every screen we attempt is that a scheming problem

[Orlando Buffalo]

10 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Considering he's already had 10 touches against the Browns and 23 against NE, I think you may be seeing him more and sooner.

When I say touches i don't mean just on the field, I am pretty sure he did not get more plays his way than Cook and Singletary 

[BCAS Baritone]

14 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Two possible options. They are either reading him for the give/pull read OR they think they can just out-run him on the sweep. As the read option game has evolved more and more teams are going to the later in that situation to eliminate a second defender from being able to make a play. Essentially playing 11 on 9 football.

 

The last section in this article (Q Counter Sweep Read) is talking about the exact concept we ran (we just did it out of two back instead of using a jet motion to get to it). There it talks about reading the end, but more and more teams are going to what I talked about earlier and reading that Mike in that diagram, blocking the concept the same, and assuming they're back will outrun the end on the sweep. You see it a ton at the college and high school level.

In that article you linked to (https://spreadoffensefootball.com/counter-trey-with-jet-motion/) the play was designed for the ball carrier to go between the Guard and Tackle, which Hines did not do.  Do you think the play was intended to actually go wide or did Hines read it wrong?

 

[HoofHearted]

22 hours ago, BCAS Baritone said:

In that article you linked to (https://spreadoffensefootball.com/counter-trey-with-jet-motion/) the play was designed for the ball carrier to go between the Guard and Tackle, which Hines did not do.  Do you think the play was intended to actually go wide or did Hines read it wrong?

 

Think you may have looked at the wrong concept (It talks about three different ones in the article all off of the same action up front). The third one is the one you should be looking at.

 

[todd]

I think we need to remember that many players have called the offense complex. It probably impacts RBs quite a bit when it comes to protection, routes and blocking schemes that likely change in the fly. Let’s not rush to judgement.

[HoofHearted]

On 12/3/2022 at 9:05 PM, Beck Water said:

 

OK, I see that...#27 is clearly not sold on the backfield flow so Josh keeps it.

 

I'm going to struggle to frame the question I have in a way that's answerable, so please bear with me while I flail around trying to frame this

 

I think we have trouble with HB screen plays, and I think nobody buys them in part because of the run threat Josh poses.  The DL isn't going to crash wholeheartedly into the backfield after Josh and let the RB release and catch the pass, because they're too worried that Josh will keep the ball, evade them in the backfield, and they'll be chasing his shoesoles down the field.  TOf course, I could be incorrect, and it could be that we have "tells" or errors in execution because we don't practice them enough, or reasons I haven't  thought of.

 

But let me step back to Josh's read...#27 isn't sold on the backfield flow, and initially I think I see his eyes drawn to the backs.  But very quickly, his eyes and #91 both shift to Josh, who is clearly the guy they're more concerned about.  I'm wondering if it will be realistic for us to ever sell the backer on the backfield flow, because they're always mindful of Josh.  If you're that backer, what would make the sale to you?

 

Does that make any sense?

 

PS that's a GREAT website by the way.  Very clear explanations.

 

I think the way teams are pass rushing us definitely plays into why our HB Middle Screen game hasn't looked very good. Teams are selling out to their low box/high box rules which makes playing screens a lot easier.

 

Let me clear some things up that I said earlier. Most defenses have one back vs. two back rules when it comes to linebacker play/reads. In general, in one back situations most teams will key offensive linemen. In two back this changes to reading backfield since more often than not that second back will take you to the ball. So the Bills are creating misdirection in the play design by attacking how our opponent is going to read the play. #27 sees Cook and Hines working that stretch path so based on his rules he'd step that direction. When Josh sees him step towards the sweep he know's he is suppose to then pull it and run the Q Counter. If #27 had play the line action (GT Counter - Guard and Tackle both pull opposite the backfield flow) then Josh would give to Hines on the sweep. That two steps in the wrong direction by #27 and #91 is all the space Josh needs to pick up good yardage.