McKenzie with 2 good weeks in a row. Cook looking decent running/catching. Replicants? Pod People?

[ChicagoRic]

That's gotta be it, right?

[Saxum]

Josh is playing better not throwing balls when McKenzie is not expecting it so Isaiah able to catch it.

[BillsGuyOutWest]

[Nephilim17]

The new "McKenzie" could be Nexus 6. That's a four-year lifespan. Two-year contract. We're ok.

[Coach Tuesday]

I've seen things... seen things you little people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion bright as magnesium... I rode on the back decks of a blinker and watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments... they'll be gone.  Like tears in rain.  
 

Time… to die.

[Freddie's Dead]

McKittrick has always been this good.  The McKittrick haterz were ready to pounce on a couple bad plays, and consistently ignore all the plays he's made since he's been here.  I'm enjoying every minute of watching the haterz eat crow.

[78thealltimegreat]

50 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

Josh is playing better not throwing balls when McKenzie is not expecting it so Isaiah able to catch it.

Well when Isiah expects them he still misses see the Chiefs game 

[34-78-83]

McKenzie has been an unexpected but crucial key to the last two victories. He’s been a reliable first down getting machine, displaying good ball protection as well. Love seeing this from him and hope he can keep it up. 

[Shaw66]

The two of them have been my whipping boys this season, and they both showed up as pleasant surprises against the Pat.   I think it's a sign of things to come for Cook; I think Mc will continue to be up and down. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Cook is The One

 

[Beck Water]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:23 PM, ChicagoRic said:

That's gotta be it, right?

 

LOL no.

 

In the post game thread, I put up a couple screen shots (credit to Erik Turner of Cover1) that pretty well exemplify what I've been seeing.

 

Some combination of Knox, McKenzie, and an RB have been open short to intermediate on the majority of our passing plays.  Allen has not been looking to them.  The answer to "where are these guys, and why aren't they contributing?" has often been, they're there, they're open, they're generally not being used.

 

It looks as though Dorsey's idea of the answer to teams playing 2 high safeties, rush 3 or 4, flood the field with DBs, has been to send 3 WR on relatively slow developing routes, get at least 2 guys open very short who have all sorts of room (because the DBs are all busy covering 3 receivers).  If Allen hits these guys in time, they can get the first down and very likely more.

 

Allen has been literally overlooking his short options and trying to buy time and force the ball in to 3 WR covered by 7 defenders.  Early in the year, with no dings and dents on him and pinpoint accuracy, it worked more often than not.

 

But the answer to "where have those guys been?" is "right where Allen found them last night".

 

Now - the Lions game was a little different.   I think we were running a lot of 5 WR looks, spreading the field, and when McKenzie was open it was often open quite deep.  But vs. the Patriots, he was running quite "conventional slot" routes and making good catches for 1st downs.

 

[NoSaint]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:23 PM, ChicagoRic said:

That's gotta be it, right?

mckenzie is talented but inconsistent. Not hard to reconcile that he has skills but makes mistakes at a higher than normal rate 

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

The two of them have been my whipping boys this season, and they both showed up as pleasant surprises against the Pat.   I think it's a sign of things to come for Cook; I think Mc will continue to be up and down. 

agreed on both fronts. We will see where cook plateaus but he has upside still while mckenzie is who he is 

[MasterStrategist]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

LOL no.

 

In the post game thread, I put up a couple screen shots (credit to Erik Turner of Cover1) that pretty well exemplify what I've been seeing.

 

Some combination of Knox, McKenzie, and an RB have been open short to intermediate on the majority of our passing plays.  Allen has not been looking to them.  The answer to "where are these guys, and why aren't they contributing?" has often been, they're there, they're open, they're generally not being used.

 

It looks as though Dorsey's idea of the answer to teams playing 2 high safeties, rush 3 or 4, flood the field with DBs, has been to send 3 WR on relatively slow developing routes, get at least 2 guys open very short who have all sorts of room (because the DBs are all busy covering 3 receivers).  If Allen hits these guys in time, they can get the first down and very likely more.

 

Allen has been literally overlooking his short options and trying to buy time and force the ball in to 3 WR covered by 7 defenders.  Early in the year, with no dings and dents on him and pinpoint accuracy, it worked more often than not.

 

But the answer to "where have those guys been?" is "right where Allen found them last night".

 

Now - the Lions game was a little different.   I think we were running a lot of 5 WR looks, spreading the field, and when McKenzie was open it was often open quite deep.  But vs. the Patriots, he was running quite "conventional slot" routes and making good catches for 1st downs.

 

Same concepts as LY, TBH.

 

We have "layer" concepts, with Davis and Diggs occupying the deep/intermediate and then Knox/Rb as outlets.  This gave Beas alot of freedom last year, but with Isiah I think he's still learning where to sit in open zones.

 

These concepts tend to struggle against teams that jam our WRs, ie:Chiefs, Dolphins.  Because we basically have 1 WR who consistently wins on jams, and that's Diggs.  Need to get more creative against them, and run stacked/trips to create natural picks and more misdirection/motion.  I feel like this took Daboll time to adjust to LY, and same with Dorsey...but seems like he's figuring it out.

[mrags]

On 12/2/2022 at 12:10 AM, Freddie's Dead said:

McKittrick has always been this good.  The McKittrick haterz were ready to pounce on a couple bad plays, and consistently ignore all the plays he's made since he's been here.  I'm enjoying every minute of watching the haterz eat crow.

So when he was dropping balls and not playing well, those people weren’t right? Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 
 

I will agree with you McK can and is sometimes very good. He’s also sometimes very bad. He’s inconsistent at best. He’ll have 6 games in a row with 1 catch for 6 yards, then have a game with 7 for 80+. It’s infuriating actually that he’s not better all the time. Because you are right, he does have it in him to be very good. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

LOL no.

 

In the post game thread, I put up a couple screen shots (credit to Erik Turner of Cover1) that pretty well exemplify what I've been seeing.

 

Some combination of Knox, McKenzie, and an RB have been open short to intermediate on the majority of our passing plays.  Allen has not been looking to them.  The answer to "where are these guys, and why aren't they contributing?" has often been, they're there, they're open, they're generally not being used.

 

It looks as though Dorsey's idea of the answer to teams playing 2 high safeties, rush 3 or 4, flood the field with DBs, has been to send 3 WR on relatively slow developing routes, get at least 2 guys open very short who have all sorts of room (because the DBs are all busy covering 3 receivers).  If Allen hits these guys in time, they can get the first down and very likely more.

 

Allen has been literally overlooking his short options and trying to buy time and force the ball in to 3 WR covered by 7 defenders.  Early in the year, with no dings and dents on him and pinpoint accuracy, it worked more often than not.

 

But the answer to "where have those guys been?" is "right where Allen found them last night".

 

Now - the Lions game was a little different.   I think we were running a lot of 5 WR looks, spreading the field, and when McKenzie was open it was often open quite deep.  But vs. the Patriots, he was running quite "conventional slot" routes and making good catches for 1st downs.

 

Josh's obscure 2 1/2 game crapfest has alot to do with his refusal to check down to open guys. These last 3 games we've seen him tone it down and backoff some on deep hero ball. And it's working. Doesn't mean he won't take deep shots like the Sweeney holding TD, but I think you're going to see a smarter more mature version of this Cyborg. 

[Beck Water]

34 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Same concepts as LY, TBH.

 

We have "layer" concepts, with Davis and Diggs occupying the deep/intermediate and then Knox/Rb as outlets.  This gave Beas alot of freedom last year, but with Isiah I think he's still learning where to sit in open zones.

 

These concepts tend to struggle against teams that jam our WRs, ie:Chiefs, Dolphins.  Because we basically have 1 WR who consistently wins on jams, and that's Diggs.  Need to get more creative against them, and run stacked/trips to create natural picks and more misdirection/motion.  I feel like this took Daboll time to adjust to LY, and same with Dorsey...but seems like he's figuring it out.

 

See, this is not what I'm seeing. 

 

Yes, Daboll ran a lot of layer concepts.  In 2020 the "intermediate" layer was pretty deep, 10-15 yds and Josh feasted there.  In 2021, teams started playing consistent 2 deep, trying to get pressure  with 4 or even 3 with stunting and players dropping out vs blitzing, and flooding the middle of field with DBs.  It's one reason Beasley was not able to be as consistently effective or gain as many yards on the same # of receptions (it wasn't all on him declining physically).

 

Dorsey started out with more layered concepts, but of recent I feel he's gone away from that to deeper routes and short checkdown routes.  I see McKenzie in the flat or on little short comebacks (I know those have a specific name), OR, he's one of the 3 WR running downfield routes (usually clearing routes for Diggs and Davis) and it's Knox and the RB as the checkdowns.    McK's clearing routes have been less effective because he hasn't been getting targets and the DBs are like "ha, don't be silly, we're looking at you, Diggs".  TD vs Lions was a route where Diggs cleared for McK, the DBs stuck to him like bees on honey, and McKenzie got the grab.

 

FWIW it's not just me, Erik Turner and Nate Geary on a recent Cover1 piece said the same thing about seeing less layers and more "Deep or very shallow, nothing in between".

 

It's why I think if 2020 Beasley walked back in the door today, he wouldn't necessarily have the same success - the way Dorsey is using the slot receiver is different. 

 

Now, of course, the chicken-and-egg question can be asked, but I really think it's a philosophical thing.   Daboll felt the way to beat teams that flood the middle of the field was by scheming guys open as you say with misdirection, stacked routes, picks, etc - or maybe he did that because he knew Josh behaved as though he's allergic to checkdowns. 

 

Dorsey feels the way to play a team that's decided to flood the intermediate to deep parts of the field is to hit the checkdowns and burn them for 10-15 yds over and over and over again until they decide to try something different or you reach the EZ, and Josh, take the checkdown ***** he can get you 20 yds if you throw it on time. 

 

But Dorsey and Allen haven't been on the same page, because Josh feels that he has the arm talent to fire it in to tight windows on a double-covered deep guy and the leg talent to extend plays and wait 4 seconds for a WR to get open deep.

 

Hopefully the Pats game is the start of them being more aligned.

[Beck Water]

46 minutes ago, mrags said:

So when he was dropping balls and not playing well, those people weren’t right? Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

 

Yes, McKenzie has had some bad plays. 

 

But as a matter of CHHF (cold hard football facts) he has had the 2nd highest catch % of the WR on the team all season, second to Diggs - and 3 scored drops for a 6% drop %, just a little bit higher than Diggs with 7 scored drops for 5.5%.

 

And at times he's been wide wide open and overlooked while Josh threw deep to a double-covered guy.

 

46 minutes ago, mrags said:

I will agree with you McK can and is sometimes very good. He’s also sometimes very bad. He’s inconsistent at best. He’ll have 6 games in a row with 1 catch for 6 yards, then have a game with 7 for 80+. It’s infuriating actually that he’s not better all the time. Because you are right, he does have it in him to be very good. 

 

We can agree that improved consistency is a goal for him if he wants to stick around.

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

Allen has been literally overlooking his short options and trying to buy time and force the ball in to 3 WR covered by 7 defenders.  Early in the year, with no dings and dents on him and pinpoint accuracy, it worked more often than not.

 

But the answer to "where have those guys been?" is "right where Allen found them last night".

Agree. Just like Mahomes last year, Allen got a little tired of just taking what the D was giving him. In the first few games it looked like McKenzie was making strides in finding those open spots the really good slot receivers (remember Beasley?) specialize in, but then Josh got a little Diggs/Gabe obsessed. 

[LyndonvilleBill]

I thought I read somewhere that Beasley ran a lot of option routes? Which I assume would be of great benefit against zone. McKenzie seems to be better in man coverage. With this being said, if you are a wr running in man coverage,  do you mainly run the route as designed (less flexibility) versus zone and option routes (more flexible)? Could Shakir and McKenzie be stuck in their heads and only running routes as designed?

 

Josh telling Diggs, just get open and I'll find you or Beasley find a hole seems to work(ed) pretty darn well. Can Shakir and McKenzie get to that level of freedom?

[Saxum]

11 minutes ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

I thought I read somewhere that Beasley ran a lot of option routes? Which I assume would be of great benefit against zone. McKenzie seems to be better in man coverage. With this being said, if you are a wr running in man coverage,  do you mainly run the route as designed (less flexibility) versus zone and option routes (more flexible)? Could Shakir and McKenzie be stuck in their heads and only running routes as designed?

 

Josh telling Diggs, just get open and I'll find you or Beasley find a hole seems to work(ed) pretty darn well. Can Shakir and McKenzie get to that level of freedom?

 

Stevie Johnson used to do it the best - he would run the route but how he got to each point on route was up to him making impossible for some All Pro NFL CB Darrelle Revis to cover him.  It requires a QB with very high IQ - both football and natural - to play well with him.

 

It is why Stevie had 3 1000 yard seasons.