12/1/2022 - NFL Week #13 - Bills at Pats* - Post game thread

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

Quesenberry was a literal parking cone. A big one though that you at least have to run around. I give him a lot of credit for what looked like a rough night.

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

If this is how we're going to play offense I wouldn't expect Devin Singletary back. You can see why it was so important to them to have good checkdown options who catch smoothly and have the explosiveness to get up the field. Allen probably should have been checking down more than he was at times throughout the year but he's not going to feel good about doing that if the backs are not efficient on their end.

 

Previously the Bills made money in the intermediate area, now it's more deep or checkdown than it was. Hopefully Cook continues to show out, it's important that draft pick works out for us.

 

I'm not ready to annoint Cook yet.  It's very important to the Bills to have a back who can pass protect well.  Is Cook that guy?  Uncertain.

 

re: intermediate area I'd like to bring up this screenshot from the Cook 14 yd catch-and run again.  I double-dip here because I'm a lazy butt - feel free to correct me anyone who's been watching more film, but I think you could find quite a few similar screen shots where the details are different - you could have McKenzie off to the L standing on the 22 hash or Knox in the flat - but the story is similar.

The Patriots tried to pressure with, actually it looks like 3 guys and one assigned to mirror Josh Allen.

 

All seven of their other defenders are BEHIND THE FIRST DOWN LINE, and most of them >10 yds off the LOS.   Josh has been holding onto the ball for 2.72 seconds.  For something like 1.72 seconds, Knox has been so freakin' open with so much green around him, he could plant a Christmas tree farm and shape the trees on the way to the 30 yd line.  Cook was open earlier in the play, but Josh refused to pull the trigger earlier because he was looking deep.  Thankfully Cook was "QB friendly" this time and shifted to an open passing lane, Allen found him, and he gained 14.  He could have had more if Allen didn't wait until the two defenders said "oh, *****" and headed for Cook.

 

For a QB like Kurt Warner or like Dorsey likely was in college, this is read and react territory.  You've got 7 LB and DB in the vicinity with 3 receivers vs. 2 targets who leaked out from pass pro WIDE OPEN.  You hit one of them ASAP, before the deep guys go "Oh, waitaminnut, who's got Cook?  Who's got Knox?". Let them gain 14 or 20 or 28 yds and if it's only 7 yds, no problem, now it's 3rd and 1 and the football still belongs to the Bills.

 

Then I believe Dorsey's idea is, after the D gets burned on 5 or 6 or 15 of these plays, the DC says "Oh, wait a minute, Allen is taking the checkdowns today and those guys have serious wheels and it's killing us, time for a different plan!".   Then it's 5 DB on 3 WR which means one guy is singled and there's a better chance to scheme one open.  We start seeing Dorsey roll out the passing concepts with intermediate routes again. 

 

And if the D doesn't adjust, who cares, keep running the same style of play until the D proves they can stop it.  You've just gained 85 yds and you're posing in the endzone.

 

This is where my ears pricked in the Fitzy interview when Josh said that the QB has to be an extension of how the OC sees the field and it's taken some time but he thinks they're getting to a good place now, or words to that effect.   

 

I think what Josh sees on the field is - "I know I can make this happen".  He will try to force a throw in.  And if he does have the protection or can extend the play, he's not entirely wrong.  In fact, as Cook makes the catch and we're 3.6 seconds into the play, you can see that Diggs has beaten his guy deep, and Gabe Davis may be coming open on the crosser (though there's a defender who could read Allen's eyes and play robber, and the DB in trail could play in the ball).  But then if he misses, we're in 3rd and 8 and a penalty or a misfire takes us off the field.

 

TL;DR I'm coming to the feeling that what's been wrong with the offense isn't either on Dorsey or Josh but on a mismatch in philosophy and view of the field, and hopefully if Josh is right that they're getting to a good place now, things will start clicking.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Beck Water

[Coach Tuesday]

Quiz had to take time off from the NFL to beat cancer.  He’s a tough SOB.

[Ralonzo]

1 hour ago, JROC INTEL said:

I think this every time. I honestly could see this being his last year because he is painfully uninterested in Thursday Night Football. I like the guy but his inability to get excited is a kind of a downer.

 

Who knew Michaels would become the Albert Haynesworth of announcing?

[Beck Water]

So Greg Cosell's usual Friday segment on OBL was spent dissecting the NE game.

 

Worth a listen

 

 

Tidbit.  10:25 in.  Brown brought up that the Bills have run 4 total plays out of "ten personnel" (he means 10 personnel, 4 WR 1 RB and 0 TE).  He says we haven't seen it in weeks, but I think we ran it against Detroit?  Maybe I'm wrong, I assume Brown watches more film than I do...

 

....anyway, his point is we showed that personnel set 4x vs NE with Cook as the back, and we ran from it all 4 times - for 27 yds.  Cosell gives a nice explanation of how this 4 WR personnel set influences run defense and can help break a bigger run play.

 

[Big Turk]

59 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'm not ready to annoint Cook yet.  It's very important to the Bills to have a back who can pass protect well.  Is Cook that guy?  Uncertain.

 

re: intermediate area I'd like to bring up this screenshot from the Cook 14 yd catch-and run again.  I double-dip here because I'm a lazy butt - feel free to correct me anyone who's been watching more film, but I think you could find quite a few similar screen shots where the details are different - you could have McKenzie off to the L standing on the 22 hash or Knox in the flat - but the story is similar.

The Patriots tried to pressure with, actually it looks like 3 guys and one assigned to mirror Josh Allen.

 

All seven of their other defenders are BEHIND THE FIRST DOWN LINE, and most of them >10 yds off the LOS.   Josh has been holding onto the ball for 2.72 seconds.  For something like 1.72 seconds, Knox has been so freakin' open with so much green around him, he could plant a Christmas tree farm and shape the trees on the way to the 30 yd line.  Cook was open earlier in the play, but Josh refused to pull the trigger earlier because he was looking deep.  Thankfully Cook was "QB friendly" this time and shifted to an open passing lane, Allen found him, and he gained 14.  He could have had more if Allen didn't wait until the two defenders said "oh, *****" and headed for Cook.

 

For a QB like Kurt Warner or like Dorsey likely was in college, this is read and react territory.  You've got 7 LB and DB in the vicinity with 3 receivers vs. 2 targets who leaked out from pass pro WIDE OPEN.  You hit one of them ASAP, before the deep guys go "Oh, waitaminnut, who's got Cook?  Who's got Knox?". Let them gain 14 or 20 or 28 yds and if it's only 7 yds, no problem, now it's 3rd and 1 and the football still belongs to the Bills.

 

Then I believe Dorsey's idea is, after the D gets burned on 5 or 6 or 15 of these plays, the DC says "Oh, wait a minute, Allen is taking the checkdowns today and those guys have serious wheels and it's killing us, time for a different plan!".   Then it's 5 DB on 3 WR which means one guy is singled and there's a better chance to scheme one open.  We start seeing Dorsey roll out the passing concepts with intermediate routes again. 

 

And if the D doesn't adjust, who cares, keep running the same style of play until the D proves they can stop it.  You've just gained 85 yds and you're posing in the endzone.

 

This is where my ears pricked in the Fitzy interview when Josh said that the QB has to be an extension of how the OC sees the field and it's taken some time but he thinks they're getting to a good place now, or words to that effect.   

 

I think what Josh sees on the field is - "I know I can make this happen".  He will try to force a throw in.  And if he does have the protection or can extend the play, he's not entirely wrong.  In fact, as Cook makes the catch and we're 3.6 seconds into the play, you can see that Diggs has beaten his guy deep, and Gabe Davis may be coming open on the crosser (though there's a defender who could read Allen's eyes and play robber, and the DB in trail could play in the ball).  But then if he misses, we're in 3rd and 8 and a penalty or a misfire takes us off the field.

 

TL;DR I'm coming to the feeling that what's been wrong with the offense isn't either on Dorsey or Josh but on a mismatch in philosophy and view of the field, and hopefully if Josh is right that they're getting to a good place now, things will start clicking.

 

 

 

 

 

That's a good possibility. Adjustments once teams get film on tendencies and getting on the same page with what you want to happen on a given play can take some time to develop...especially if they are running similar play designs and concepts with subtle differences 

[Low Positive]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

So Greg Cosell's usual Friday segment on OBL was spent dissecting the NE game.

 

Worth a listen

 

 

Tidbit.  10:25 in.  Brown brought up that the Bills have run 4 total plays out of "ten personnel" (he means 10 personnel, 4 WR 1 RB and 0 TE).  He says we haven't seen it in weeks, but I think we ran it against Detroit?  Maybe I'm wrong, I assume Brown watches more film than I do...

 

....anyway, his point is we showed that personnel set 4x vs NE with Cook as the back, and we ran from it all 4 times - for 27 yds.  Cosell gives a nice explanation of how this 4 WR personnel set influences run defense and can help break a bigger run play.

 

Put that running out of passing sets on film and then hit the Jets or Fins with a PA out of it.

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

So Greg Cosell's usual Friday segment on OBL was spent dissecting the NE game.

 

Worth a listen

 

 

Tidbit.  10:25 in.  Brown brought up that the Bills have run 4 total plays out of "ten personnel" (he means 10 personnel, 4 WR 1 RB and 0 TE).  He says we haven't seen it in weeks, but I think we ran it against Detroit?  Maybe I'm wrong, I assume Brown watches more film than I do...

 

....anyway, his point is we showed that personnel set 4x vs NE with Cook as the back, and we ran from it all 4 times - for 27 yds.  Cosell gives a nice explanation of how this 4 WR personnel set influences run defense and can help break a bigger run play.

 

Not exactly a newsflash, but my lord, Steve Tasker is terrible.  

[Bills!Win!]

3 hours ago, JROC INTEL said:

I think this every time. I honestly could see this being his last year because he is painfully uninterested in Thursday Night Football. I like the guy but his inability to get excited is a kind of a downer.

Most of the games have been trash. I wouldn’t be excited calling games like Panthers vs Falcons or whatever they have every week 

[davefan66]

Rewatching the game.

 

A lot of people say mac has a punchable face.  He does.

 

Hochuli by far is more punchable.

[vincec]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

I felt bad for him...he was obviously severely hobbled pretty much from the first series where he re-aggravated his ankle injury and had to get a massive tape job. Came back in to try and gut it out but obviously was not anything close to 100%. Gutsy effort from him, even if it wasn't a good performance.

I have to seriously question whether a 70% Quessenberry was the best OT the Bills could have put on the field. He was absolutely terrible. If so, then I think you do have to question what the Bills are doing with their OL roster.

[Big Turk]

8 minutes ago, vincec said:

I have to seriously question whether a 70% Quessenberry was the best OT the Bills could have put on the field. He was absolutely terrible. If so, then I think you do have to question what the Bills are doing with their OL roster.

 

Coaches are always going to let players try and play if they can. Realistically you could probably make the case 50% of dudes who play with injuries aren't better than a healthy replacement but rarely do they sit them out of the player can go. This isn't a Bills thing, it's an NFL thing.

 

Additionally, point me to a team that has good OLine depth. Almost none do. Some don't even have quality starters. Been a huge issue in the NFL for many years now.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Big Turk

[Chandler#81]

 

[vincec]

55 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Coaches are always going to let players try and play if they can. Realistically you could probably make the case 50% of dudes who play with injuries aren't better than a healthy replacement but rarely do they sit them out of the player can go. This isn't a Bills thing, it's an NFL thing.

 

Additionally, point me to a team that has good OLine depth. Almost none do. Some don't even have quality starters. Been a huge issue in the NFL for many years now.

Both fair points, but if Bobby Hart isn’t better than what we saw on Thursday then what is he doing on an NFL roster? The coaches obviously don’t think he is, which is pretty damning.

[CNYfan]

13 minutes ago, vincec said:

Both fair points, but if Bobby Hart isn’t better than what we saw on Thursday then what is he doing on an NFL roster? The coaches obviously don’t think he is, which is pretty damning.

I think Bobby Hart is not very good, but he is the 3rd string Guard and 4th string offensive Tackle.  

At Guard he is bad, but not laughably horrendous.  Also, at OT he did almost ok on run plays.

[SCBills]

Kirk Herbstreit with the Josh Allen reference in the Big XII Championship Game.  
 

TCU QB threw a pick off his back foot under pressure to which Kirk said “unless you’re Josh Allen you’re not making that throw”. 
 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by SCBills

[njbuff]

This game was like men against boys.

 

The Bills didn’t even have to put in maximum effort to win this game.

[Joe Ferguson]

 

[chongli]

Grin 😄

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

Walking out of Gillette I stumbled upon the road radio booth. It's fairly low, atop the first section.