Kyler Murray: How did the Cardinals fall for it?

[Mr. WEO]

36 minutes ago, mannc said:

Yes, he is, and he's tied at the hip to Murray.  When Kingsbury is fired, there's a good chance Murray's days are numbered too....

 

How can they get rid of Murray?  He's untradeable.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

He looks like a smug little dog. Can't stand that prick. 

[H2o]

22 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

He looks like a smug little dog. Can't stand that prick. 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

Not remembering the gold strike...

 

Jim Hart and the Cardinals of the mid 1970s... their Super Bowl vs. the Steelers... they actually found some success and struck gold but it wasn't THAT much gold LOL

1 hour ago, Airseven said:

You mean, Keim is the one who got a do-over after Rosen and then committed prematurely to Murray to force a “franchise QB.” He pulls off decent trades occasionally, but continues to reach for skill positions and linebackers in the draft. Cardinals OL may be even worse than the Bills OL. Yes, it seems Bidwell develops relationships that shield certain managers from real performance evaluations.

 

That's what I was going for and you said it better than I did... Keim is enabled by a poor owner who comes from a family of poor ownership. Nobody wants to go to that tire fire once Kingsbury gets fired. Who wants to deal with all that Kyler nonsense with an old Hopkins etc??? Bidwill might as well sell the team because the Cardinals are going NOWHERE with Bidwill, Keim and Kyler.

Edited November 28, 2022 by EasternOHBillsFan

[The Frankish Reich]

16 hours ago, H2o said:

The same way the Broncos fell for it with Russell Wilson. 

Well, it’s a pretty different situation. Yes, the Broncos have a huge problem on their hands. But trading for Wilson and then re-signing him (and really, one couldn’t happen without the other) was a calculated risk. There aren’t many 33 year old QBs who have fallen off a cliff like Wilson. Even his subpar partial 2021 with the Seahawks produced a 100+ QB rating (I know, far from a perfect metric, but check the others and they’ll be in line with that). And this came after a remarkably consistent run in which even his bad seasons were mid-90s QB ratings. 
I can’t think of a similar sudden decline like that. Surely Peyton Manning was one - pretty much the same Peyton Manning up until his last year, then total garbage in his last season (paradoxically, the only one in which he won a Super Bowl for the Broncos). But he was already 39 and had a history of very serious injury. You just won’t find many examples like Wilson in recent NFL memory. They threw the dice on Manning; they won (and that was a much bigger risk at the time). They tried it again with Wilson; they lost. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by The Frankish Reich

[ProcessTruster]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

How can they get rid of Murray?  He's untradeable.

Oh, someone will take him for the right (ie: low) price eventually

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Oh, someone will take him for the right (ie: low) price eventually

 

He just signed a 5 year deal for 230 million--190 million guaranteed.  His dead cap next year in 100 million.  You think the Cards are going to eat that? 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

How can they get rid of Murray?  He's untradeable.

I don't know the salary cap implications, but if a new coach comes in who thinks Murray needs to go, he'll most likely be gone, one way or another.  Murray was hand-picked by Kingsbury...a new guy would have no such allegiance.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, mannc said:

I don't know the salary cap implications, but if a new coach comes in who thinks Murray needs to go, he'll most likely be gone, one way or another.  Murray was hand-picked by Kingsbury...a new guy would have no such allegiance.

 

well these are the very implications that make him untradeable.  Bidwell isn't going to swallow that hit--certainly not because his next HC says so. 

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

well these are the very implications that make him untradeable.  Bidwell isn't going to swallow that hit--certainly not because his next HC says so. 

Would the implications be the same if he were cut?

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, mannc said:

Would the implications be the same if he were cut?

 

 190 million is owed Murray. 

[C.Biscuit97]

He can be a good qb but he seems like the biggest douche on the planet and an awful leader. He has major napoleon vibes. But if he was in a system like Miami, he would be really dangerous. Just seems like an awful dude to be around though.

[mannc]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 190 million is owed Murray. 

The new coach is going to have to live with it, then...I guess it could be worse...they could have traded a ton of high picks for him, like Denver did.  I actually think Murray--unlike Wilson--is salvageable under the right coach and the right system.  He poses unique challenges for a defense....

[Ethan in Cleveland]

20 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 190 million is owed Murray. 

I'm sure there is offset language in the contract that if he is cut and signed somewhere else, the  Cardinals are only on the hook for the balance.  Also I am not sure about this but since it is guaranteed money in the future not a signing bonus I doubt all the money is payable when he would be cut.  But I don't know about that.  Signing bonus money that is prorated over the length of the contract hits the cap all oat once as dead money if the player is cut. Not so sure if he has guaranteed future earnings.  Ie. if he has $40M guaranteed over each of the next three seasons and they cut him after this year, I can't imagine the Cardinals have  to cut him a $120M check.  They would still pay him out over that time.  Maybe I am wrong.  Also possible they negotiate some buyout.  This is new territory for the NFL.  In baseball the trading trading can agree to pay part of the salary so that the new team can get the player and not have to pay full price. In NBA it is the opposite, any trade has to have equal dollar value so you can;t just dump salary without taking something in return.

[CorkScrewHill]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Very good list. Where would you put guys like Wilson, Stafford and Ryan…in the former group? Or not even on the list at all? 

For the three you mentioned I think they are clearly past their prime now, but their respective primes i would have said Wilson would have been a franchise qb .. the other two just strike me as Kirk Cousin types. You can win with them … but they are not guys that elevated their teams as I would think a true franchise qb would

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

I'm sure there is offset language in the contract that if he is cut and signed somewhere else, the  Cardinals are only on the hook for the balance.  Also I am not sure about this but since it is guaranteed money in the future not a signing bonus I doubt all the money is payable when he would be cut.  But I don't know about that.  Signing bonus money that is prorated over the length of the contract hits the cap all oat once as dead money if the player is cut. Not so sure if he has guaranteed future earnings.  Ie. if he has $40M guaranteed over each of the next three seasons and they cut him after this year, I can't imagine the Cardinals have  to cut him a $120M check.  They would still pay him out over that time.  Maybe I am wrong.  Also possible they negotiate some buyout.  This is new territory for the NFL.  In baseball the trading trading can agree to pay part of the salary so that the new team can get the player and not have to pay full price. In NBA it is the opposite, any trade has to have equal dollar value so you can;t just dump salary without taking something in return.

 

They would have to, which is why they are stuck with him.  If they cut him for skill or cap reasons, he still gets his money.

 

"There are three separate kinds of guaranteed money

When utilized, the full guarantee of a contract consists of a combination of skill, cap, and injury guarantees, rolled into one deal.

The skill guarantee is unique in the sense that it's meant to protect a player from losing his wages if he were released. In this case, a player would receive guaranteed money if losing a roster spot was due to the declining of his skills in relation to his position. For example, a veteran place kicker who's gradually missing more and more kick attempts loses his job to a more accurate kicker, but will still be paid his full salary, after he's cut from the team.

The cap guarantee will ensure a player is paid in the event he is released for salary cap reasons. The most common situation here is when a team releases players to free up cap space, to be used in signing new players. This, like the skill guarantee, would promise a player's full salary should he be released."

 

Why would he, after signing the contract, negotiate away any money--as they are cutting him??

 

 

[msw2112]

A few comments on the Cardinals situation, all of which have been touched on at some point above in this thread:

 

• Murray is a great athlete
• Murray's size is a problem, particularly when it comes to passing from the pocket
• Murray is immature, self-absorbed, and a terrible leader
• Most of Murray's success comes on broken plays - he's small, quick, fast and elusive, so he can run around until a receiver breaks off his route and gets open, he chucks it up, and receivers make plays OR he can make big plays as a runner.  (Josh Allen does this too, but he is not small, and he can also execute plays out of the playbook)
• The Cardinals' head coach is terrible.  He was unsuccessful as a college coach.  For perspective, he was the head coach for 3 years with PATRICK MAHOMES as his QB and was 13-16 in games that Mahomes started.  He's not a good leader of men and he's just not very smart as a tactician.
• The Cardinals' GM is not very good and its ownership is clueless, having given both Kingsbury and Murray large, lucrative extensions after a season in which they started 7-0 and then imploded down the stretch and meekly bowed out in the playoffs.

As Bills fans, we've seen our share of ineptitude over the years, so I am very thankful for what and who the Bills currently have in place.

[John from Riverside]

These athletes that complain, multiple sports do tend to work out more often than not, but you just don’t know what’s going on in a players head past the athleticism

[CorkScrewHill]

After the game, when asked about what happened on the 4th and 1 interception. Murray took full responsibility as you would expect a leader to do. Oh wait no he didn't he blamed the scheme .. which is the responsibility of course of the playcaller .. Kingsbury. 

 

Not a leader!

[TheWeatherMan]

Hopefully they take the cap hit and go full rebuild.  Give me DHOP for a #2.