Coaching won us the game

[DieHardBillsFan]

1 hour ago, WyoAZBillfan said:

Dorsey still needs to grow and, rather fast. Teams are figuring the team out, especially when you look at end of last season/first quarter this year. As pointed out in many threads Gabe motions = run plays most times, as an example. 
 

Overall it seems on D they are realizing 4 man front hasn’t been making it home enough and as we get players back I think they blitzing goes back as it used to be and practically non existent. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

 

Yesterday was a team victory, many players gutted it out it seemed. 

Teams aren't figuring the Bills out. JA is banged up clearly.  The D is built to expect points from the offense. Then we play nickel on pad plays. With our qb hurt we aren't playing Bills ball. But they haven't figured us out. 

[DC Greg]

1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

I thought our time management was really bad at the end of the 1st half, and mildly bad at the end of the 2nd half. 

 

We had 2 timeouts for this sequence at the end of the first half and didn't use one. Too much time came off the clock and really hurt out chances of getting a TD (at least we got a FG).

 

1st & 10 at BUF 25

(1:52 - 2nd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass deep right to I.McKenzie to DET 48 for 27 yards (J.Jacobs).

1st & 10 at DET 48

(1:24 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Allen pass incomplete deep right to S.Diggs. Ball thrown away.

2nd & 10 at DET 48

(1:20 - 2nd) (Shotgun) J.Allen scrambles up the middle to DET 43 for 5 yards (C.Board).

3rd & 5 at DET 43

(0:52 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Allen pass short right to S.Diggs to DET 36 for 7 yards (A.Anzalone).

1st & 10 at DET 36

(0:32 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Allen pass incomplete deep right. ball thrown away.

 

In the 2nd half we panicked after the last play and took the timeout with 7 seconds remaining. We should have waited for ~3 seconds so the FG attempt is the last play of the game. Sure, the odds aren't great that the Lions would score on a kickoff return, but it's not 0% (like it would be if we had waited on the TO). 

 

 

Calling the timeout with 7 seconds remaining was absurd. There is no excuse for that. It didn't end up costing them, but that is basic clock management for a head coach. You don't leave time for another play there, ever.

 

Do we know that McD called it? Or is it possible there was another hyped up player who took it upon themselves to call TO like Diggs did after his catch on that drive. If so... that's a problem too. Players should know the coach is responsible for the clock and trust that he'll make the right decision.

[The Wiz]

13 minutes ago, DC Greg said:

 

Calling the timeout with 7 seconds remaining was absurd. There is no excuse for that. It didn't end up costing them, but that is basic clock management for a head coach. You don't leave time for another play there, ever.

 

Do we know that McD called it? Or is it possible there was another hyped up player who took it upon themselves to call TO like Diggs did after his catch on that drive. If so... that's a problem too. Players should know the coach is responsible for the clock and trust that he'll make the right decision.

This is what I was thinking as well. 

 

When the clock starts at 12 and the play happens I doubt the players are going to take the time to find the game clock and see if they should call a TO yet or not. They are going to see the play is over and call it immediately. 

 

On the other hand, it very well could have been mcD.

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

7 seconds 

Pros:

If the Bills commit a holding penalty (or other non pre-snap violation) on a made FG there's enough time to attempt a longer FG

Cons:

Enough time for the Lions to attempt a hail mary if the Bills miss the kick or fumble the snap (recovered by DET)

Enough time for the Lions to return a kickoff if the Bills make the kick

 

3 seconds

Pros: 

Eliminates the small risk of a Lions miracle TD on a kickoff return/hail mary

Cons:

Bills can't get a 2nd FG attempt from farther out if they commit a penalty on a made kick

 

Given that it was a tie game I think 3 seconds is clearly the correct call. The 'worst case' scenario for 7 seconds is the Bills lose the game in regulation. The 'worst case' scenario for 3 seconds is the game goes to OT. 

I don’t look at worst case scenarios to make my decision.  I look at the chance that these things will happen.  Much greater chance that we commit a penalty and our chance to kick the FG than they return the kick for a TD or hit a Hail Mary.  
 

and when discussing this in your original post you stated that “we panicked” when making that decision……when they may have just seen things differently than you do. 
 

agree to disagree.  
 

[DC Greg]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t look at worst case scenarios to make my decision.  I look at the chance that these things will happen.  Much greater chance that we commit a penalty and our chance to kick the FG than they return the kick for a TD or hit a Hail Mary.  
 

and when discussing this in your original post you stated that “we panicked” when making that decision……when they may have just seen things differently than you do. 
 

agree to disagree.  
 

 Much greater chance at a non presnap penalty? On a field goal? They never call holding on FG attempts. Name the last time you saw that happen. False start, Offside, running into kicker, or running into snapper is all the yellow that ever happens. You don't leave time for another play in that situation. It was a mistake by mcd or whoever called it. There's no chance they made a strategic decision to leave time and if they did, that's much worse than just having a brain fart.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, KzooMike said:

I'm more critical of McDermott than most. Plenty are critical of Frazier. Dorsey has been under the radar, but I think fans would give him a neutral mark on the season. In the game against Detroit, I really think this was one of the better coached games we have seen from the entire staff. 

 

On offense, we ran the ball in the traditional running game with frequency and success. This was now two weeks in a row we did not abandon the run and used it as a stabilizing factor. We were also aggressive late in the game. If you look at the throw to Diggs, you could make an argument to play conservative. We had 23 seconds to go 35 yards, any mistake and you likely lose. Josh had done almost nothing in the deep passing game the last two weeks and made some critical errors. We trusted our guys to go get it done. I think this is a play that will help Josh get back on track from a mental perspective. 

 

On defense, we have seen the level of aggressiveness increase as our DB play has declined which I'm thankful for. The death by a thousand cuts was getting torturous.  In perhaps the most pivotal play of the game on the Lions last drive, 3rd down and 1,  in a spot we always seem to be conservative, we went all in. We sent everybody and forced the Lions to execute. Far too often we seem to be in reactionary mode in that spot. The Lions had an open guy but failed to execute against our pressure. We forced a FG which allowed us to set up the eventual game winning FG. 

 

So while we love to torch our coaches, yesterday they beat the Lions coaches in time management and were not afraid to be aggressive. The did almost everything we complain about well. We even landed an elusive within 7 point victory. I think the coaches are learning and they played a big role in the W yesterday. Hopefully we see this trend continue.        

 

As someone who disagrees with the general negativity McD has gotten around here, its post like yours here that give me hope for this board.  Sincere Kudos for acknowledging him when you feel he has done a good job despite your previous criticism of him.  Most people around here just continue to bash him or players they dislike even after good performances.  

 

It is why I started a thread on Edmunds earlier in the season to acknowledge how well he was playing.  Because the same people were bashing him after very good games by him for no reason.  One of my biggest pet peeves around here is the people who will go against facts to just push their biased agenda and can't even admit when someone they dislike plays well or does something good.  As a die hard fan of this team, I am happy when people play well even if it is someone I am not high on long term.  

 

For example, I have been of the opinion McKenzie is not a feature slot WR, but is a guy we can scheme plays for and use what he does best, his speed, to create opportunities.  But yesterday, he made some big plays for us and had a strong first half and was happy to see that and happy for him.

 

But so many others just want to trash their favorite whipping boy no matter how good of a job they do on a given Sunday.  So again, sincere Kudos for acknowledging something positive from someone you've previously had criticism for.  I wish more of the board was like this.  There is a definitely people who do this as well, just wish it was more posters.  

[Nuncha]

2 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

More trickery and gadget plays needed; jet sweeps, occasional Wild Cat and maybe a few flea flickers. Daboll definitely schemed up more trickery. 

As long as they give up the quick passes to the LOS which typically gain nothing and are down wasters.  It doesn't matter who we play, it seems like he opposing team knows when they are coming, and they get blown up 99% of the time.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

I thought our time management was really bad at the end of the 1st half, and mildly bad at the end of the 2nd half. 

 

We had 2 timeouts for this sequence at the end of the first half and didn't use one. Too much time came off the clock and really hurt out chances of getting a TD (at least we got a FG).

 

1st & 10 at BUF 25

(1:52 - 2nd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass deep right to I.McKenzie to DET 48 for 27 yards (J.Jacobs).

1st & 10 at DET 48

(1:24 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Allen pass incomplete deep right to S.Diggs. Ball thrown away.

2nd & 10 at DET 48

(1:20 - 2nd) (Shotgun) J.Allen scrambles up the middle to DET 43 for 5 yards (C.Board).

3rd & 5 at DET 43

(0:52 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Allen pass short right to S.Diggs to DET 36 for 7 yards (A.Anzalone).

1st & 10 at DET 36

(0:32 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Allen pass incomplete deep right. ball thrown away.

 

In the 2nd half we panicked after the last play and took the timeout with 7 seconds remaining. We should have waited for ~3 seconds so the FG attempt is the last play of the game. Sure, the odds aren't great that the Lions would score on a kickoff return, but it's not 0% (like it would be if we had waited on the TO). 

 

 

Before half time they took the kick on 4th down.  So assuming they had used a TO, there would have been more time on clock, but still 4th down.  It wasn't like the Bills clocked a ball to stop the clock on that drive and wasted a play.  If they had taken a TO just would have meant a KO and possible drive by Detroit, so explain again how that was bad?

 

At the end of the game pretty sure a player called the TO as initially the clock was stopped at 5 seconds, then reset back to 7 seconds.  How could that happen?  Here's my take, before they ran the last play, McD told the sideline official stay by me so you'll hear when I call TO and he did and McD called it with 5 seconds left.  But then another official came over and told the head ref, #XX called a TO before and I looked up and there were still 7 seconds left so they reset it.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

14 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Before half time they took the kick on 4th down.  So assuming they had used a TO, there would have been more time on clock, but still 4th down.  It wasn't like the Bills clocked a ball to stop the clock on that drive and wasted a play.  If they had taken a TO just would have meant a KO and possible drive by Detroit, so explain again how that was bad?

 

At the end of the game pretty sure a player called the TO as initially the clock was stopped at 5 seconds, then reset back to 7 seconds.  How could that happen?  Here's my take, before they ran the last play, McD told the sideline official stay by me so you'll hear when I call TO and he did and McD called it with 5 seconds left.  But then another official came over and told the head ref, #XX called a TO before and I looked up and there were still 7 seconds left so they reset it.

 

The first half is about the plays I highlighted earlier in the drive, and not the end of the drive. We let ~30 seconds run off the clock on 2 separate plays leaving us with a 1st and 10 from DET 36 with 32 seconds left. Had we used our TOs earlier we would've had over a minute to work with. Instead we let too much time off the clock and had to resort to taking low % shots at the end zone before settling for a FG. 

[machine gun kelly]

2 hours ago, WyoAZBillfan said:

I agree 100%, situational. But that said with some injuries it seems they have done it more out of need. Adjustments have at times been on the slow side coming, it also feels like they will keep doing whatever until the half, come with minor tweaks that don’t have any effectiveness before they pull the stops. 
 

It will be interesting to see how they play with Von out the next bit. The team seems to be getting healthy at the right time in the secondary though. 

the things I described were all it if need.  You can’t be the same team when you have 70% backups.  My old dad keeps saying to me they get paid too.

 

my response is yep and a lot less for a reason.  Johnson and Hamlin are not Hyde and poyer.

[billsbackto81]

Coaching did win us this game.

 

Bad coaching on Campbell's part that is.

[DrPJax]

1 hour ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Lions are dead last defensively in pts allowed averaging 28.2. They also have the 2nd worst run D in the league (Browns have the worst) & they were missing their top CB. We, the #2 scoring offense scored 26 (the D got 2 w/ the safety). & We punted 3 consecutive times for the 1st time this year. Hardly a stellar day by Coach Dorsey.

 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-points-per-game

 

 

     But, but we are 8-3 and that’s all that matters according to a couple of “ experts” on the forum here.   How dare you complain when our record is  so good ! How can you be critical of any aspect of the teams play !  Clearly you just want to complain and be miserable !  You likely have no life outside the Bills And just dwell on them as the only important issue is we are 8-3!  You can’t be a true fan!   It’s not relevant we are 0-2 in ths divusion , behind kc for our goal of obtaining home field   advantage!  You are obviously ungrateful and have forgetten the drought years!  You are a miserable prick. 😂😀
 

     Haha , I’m just kidding donuts!  Please forgive the above as it’s just  a joke and never directed at you!  I swear! Your points are vslid and well stated. I was just repeating a verbal attack from two “ experts” with all of the above crap last night in the shoutbox when I mentioned it would be nice if the vikes beat the pats to help us as we currently are not playing our best on offense.  Pretty laughable stuff but the name calling and personal attacks were ridiculous as one of those two implied they infrequently participated in the chat due to people being critical of the team ; hilariously another’ member pointed out that then someone was impersonating them weekly in the forum using their name! Some never let the facts or truth get in the way of their narrative.  You point out important things.  We are winning but it doesn’t seem sustainable without a little more creativity from our OC. That’s also coming from analysts like Bill cower , Phil sims, Boomer as well.  We could go undefeated the remainder of the season , but that’s seems unlikely. 
 

     Hey 8-3 is nice , but I was under the impression we want to win a super bowl.! . we just lost to the Vikings who knew our routes , picking off a pass to win after we blew a 17 point lead. The Cowboys just destroyed that team and may get better if obj joins them. Our d has some losses we may not be able to cover up , as Hyde , possibly Miller are done. Seems our best shot is to win in a shootout , so let’s hope our o continues to evolve. Those stats suggest we better!  Well analyzed, best wishes !  😀. Again sorry firvkidding I that first paragraph , but that’s a common thought process on here. 😉🍸

[Shaw66]

I believe Allen was out of bounds on his final run.  Clock stopped. 

 

Bills then took the timeout to get organized.

[Turbo44]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I believe Allen was out of bounds on his final run.  Clock stopped. 

 

Bills then took the timeout to get organized.

Nope he wasn't.  You stop the clock with 7 seconds left in case of a bad snap or a bobbled hold on the FG attempt.  Holder, if trained properly, can throw the ball into the ground near the back lineup behind the LOS and re-kick.  Kick was attempted on 1st down. 

[NewEra]

50 minutes ago, DC Greg said:

 Much greater chance at a non presnap penalty? On a field goal? They never call holding on FG attempts. Name the last time you saw that happen. False start, Offside, running into kicker, or running into snapper is all the yellow that ever happens. You don't leave time for another play in that situation. It was a mistake by mcd or whoever called it. There's no chance they made a strategic decision to leave time and if they did, that's much worse than just having a brain fart.

Yes, it’s my belief that there’s a greater chance of us having a penalty than there is them returning the kick for a TD.  Either McD agrees with me or “we panicked”.  Considering the play calls we were making (2 Josh allen runs) he was thinking a step ahead and, imo, knew when he wants to take the TO.  It’s not like he’s the first coach in history to call a TO with more than 3 seconds left in the same situation.  
 

 

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah the week before they managed their time much better at the end of the half.    I was surprised that they didn't do the same this week.........should have come up with a TD there against a bad defense with it's #1 CB out but they ran themselves into a short play sheet.    The Bills script-flipper/opponent soul crusher as currently constituted is Allen running the ball so like any running team they are more dangerous when they have the time to afford to be able to run the ball.

 

But overall I think McD notably out-managed the Meathead.   Which was necessary because the Lions OC was in Frazier's pants for much of the game.

Laughed out loud because phrasing ^

[Shaw66]

26 minutes ago, Turbo44 said:

Nope he wasn't.  You stop the clock with 7 seconds left in case of a bad snap or a bobbled hold on the FG attempt.  Holder, if trained properly, can throw the ball into the ground near the back lineup behind the LOS and re-kick.  Kick was attempted on 1st down. 

Yeah.  I found a replay.  He was down in bounds. Thanks.

[FilthyBeast]

Again, I don't disagree with this but there are 2 problems:

 

1) This team should have never been in position to squeak by 2 inferior teams the last few weeks

 

2) Coaching is also what has lost pretty much all 3 games this year, especially the Jets and Vikings.

[BobbyC81]

3 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I didn't understand the timeout with 7 seconds left at all. I actually maybe thought he was out of bounds because that would have been the only good explanation. Why even leave the kickoff to chance like that? Imagine if we had lost on a return when we could have made the FG the last play? 

You mean like the Music City Miracle?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

The first half is about the plays I highlighted earlier in the drive, and not the end of the drive. We let ~30 seconds run off the clock on 2 separate plays leaving us with a 1st and 10 from DET 36 with 32 seconds left. Had we used our TOs earlier we would've had over a minute to work with. Instead we let too much time off the clock and had to resort to taking low % shots at the end zone before settling for a FG. 

 

Wow didn't know you were privy to the Bills playbook and know that they had better plays they could have run had they had more time.  Apparently you also know that was the play deep into the end zone, that Allen didn't just take the deep throw.  Sounds like you would have called a better game than the coaches.

 

On 1st down he threw short but incomplete. Had it been completed, they could have called TO but no need. 2nd down went into end zone, but you have have no idea if that was the called play.  On 3rd down he was sacked for loss and took TO.  All I recall seeing on TV was Allen getting sacked, don't recall seeing end zone view to know all WR went deep into end zone.

 

Plus if they called TO earlier how do you know they wouldn't have still run same plays at the end since they didn't have any TO's left.

3 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I didn't understand the timeout with 7 seconds left at all. I actually maybe thought he was out of bounds because that would have been the only good explanation. Why even leave the kickoff to chance like that? Imagine if we had lost on a return when we could have made the FG the last play? 

 

At the end of the game think it may have been a player called the TO as initially the clock was stopped at 5 seconds, then reset back to 7 seconds.  How could that happen?  Here's my take, before they ran the last play, McD told the sideline official stay by me so you'll hear when I call TO and he did and McD called it with 5 seconds left.  But then another official came over and told the head ref, #XX called a TO before and I looked up and there were still 7 seconds left so they reset it.