The two-point conversion fail

[cba fan]

On 11/21/2022 at 3:36 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

This is the second onside kick with 19 seconds left. Watch carefully how close the Cleveland player came to not only coming up with the ball but running it in for a TD. The Bills nearly blew another game.

kicking teams cannot advance an onsides kick. By rule it is down where he recovers it.

 

That would have then setup a Hail Murray, then two point conversion, then OT, then Bills loss.

Edited November 23, 2022 by cba fan

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

hmm, this year the Vikings game is the only game i can think of...if you want to consider this, then i guess its two games. Last year, cant remember one..but i sure could be missing something. Ever consider McD wanted this game at 8 so his "1 score" ratio gets better😜? See how stupid that metric is? If Bills stop them late, continues the narrative that he stinks in one score games.

I agree with tis to a point, see below

I totally agree with taking shots on almost every single 2nd and 2 or less, from anywhere on field outside your own 15. You have to have confidence you can pick up 2 yards on third, so the shot plays are worth it in my mind.

 

I think anywhere inside the opponents 45 taking a shot on 3rd and 2 or less is warranted too, as you know you will go for it on 4th down.

 

I get your point about the Bills short yardage struggles this year, and would have liked to see a play designed where a  3 yard gain was 1st read and not a play designed for the TD,  and that frustrates me as well. But the philosophy of taking the shots on 2nd and 3rd i agree with.

I think this misses the point.  I don't even know what plays they ran on all those second or third and two or one to go.  Certainly when they went for it on fourth and two from the seven, they weren't "taking shots."   They only had seven yards to get to the goal line.   

 

So, fine, you like taking the shot on second and two.  If you're going to take that shot, then you should be pretty comfortable that you can make it the two yards on third down.  What I'm talking about is that Dorsey doesn't seem to have any plays he can rely on to make two yards, because on third down, and on fourth down from the seven, and on the two point conversions, they couldn't gain two yards.   

 

Third down is money down, and the Bills are going bust on the money down.  

[Turk71]

I dont know what the analytics say and I dont doubt the folks saying going for 2 was the right move there, but watching the game I felt it wasnt the right move just like I wanted them to kick the fg the week before. Both situations they were in a 2 score lead with plenty of time left in the game and it was impossible to know what would be needed in the end. Why chase points when you are in the lead with plenty of time left?

  Take what is given until the situation dictates otherwise imo.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:55 AM, atlbillsfan1975 said:

I like the call, like the play, would like to see Hines get a shot at that play. 

Finally saw the whole play. Gilliam could've blocked better but why doesn't Isaiah dive for the cone at the 2 yard line, rather than plant his foot inside the 1 and engage the db?  McKenzie is 165 pounds dripping wet. Dude you're not a power back.  Dumb on his part not to dive for the cone.

Edited November 23, 2022 by LABILLBACKER

[KellyToTasker]

2 hours ago, cba fan said:

kicking teams cannot advance an onsides kick. By rule it is down where he recovers it.

 

That would have then setup a Hail Murray, then two point conversion, then OT, then Bills loss.

No way. At this point, even the fan in the 30th row knows to just knock the ball

down. Just knock it down (says our late round drafted DBs that would’ve been on the field). Bills win, no matter what. Lots of lessons learned and growth so far this season…..All building for a Super Bowl run. 

[cba fan]

2 hours ago, Turk71 said:

I dont know what the analytics say and I dont doubt the folks saying going for 2 was the right move there, but watching the game I felt it wasnt the right move just like I wanted them to kick the fg the week before. Both situations they were in a 2 score lead with plenty of time left in the game and it was impossible to know what would be needed in the end. Why chase points when you are in the lead with plenty of time left?

  Take what is given until the situation dictates otherwise imo.

yes ty. Situational game awareness comes into play. That requires not just blindly following the book. Book only uses math for 2 pt ties. Game awareness calls for much more thinking......math don't know Bills suck at short yardage in red zone for example. Or that Brown O had sucked in 2nd half while Bills scored on nearly every possession.

[BufBills83]

I always like being aggressive, as I think overall, as long as you are well coached and execute, its going to give you more opportunities to score during the game.  Really at the beginning of the game through maybe 2nd quarter or so, if its a close game, I like going for all 4th and shorts at around midfield or beyond.  Especially if its something we can QB sneak to convert or a designed QB run.  When we've played KC the last few times, I always like that the Bills go for it on fourth and short it they are at midfield or plus territory.  They've done it the last couple times and sets the tone for the beginning of the game.

 

As for going for 2, at this point its late 3rd and you may not score another TD, which in actuality we didn't, so we wouldn't really be able to make up that point.  To me, the difference between being up 12 (not converting the 2 point try) and being up 13 (kicking the PAT) doesn't make much of a difference.  They need 2 touchdowns whether they are down 12 or 13 (TD, 2 point conversion and FG is only 11).  After that Bills drive, Cleveland opted to go for a FG that would have only got them to within 9 (still 2 score game) and the kick was blocked.

[plenzmd1]

13 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think this misses the point.  I don't even know what plays they ran on all those second or third and two or one to go.  Certainly when they went for it on fourth and two from the seven, they weren't "taking shots."   They only had seven yards to get to the goal line.   

 

So, fine, you like taking the shot on second and two.  If you're going to take that shot, then you should be pretty comfortable that you can make it the two yards on third down.  What I'm talking about is that Dorsey doesn't seem to have any plays he can rely on to make two yards, because on third down, and on fourth down from the seven, and on the two point conversions, they couldn't gain two yards.   

 

Third down is money down, and the Bills are going bust on the money down.  

well, throwing it into the endzone there was "taking a shot". I agree, they need to be better on 3rd and 4th and short/goal, as @DrDawkinstein pointed out they seem to continually look for 10 and 20 yard gains when they need 2 yards...that is what is frustrating. Maybe it's the absence of a true slot that really understands zone and how to sit in open space..and right now they don't trust Shakir cause he a rookie(or just not good enough at it) and seems like McKenzie is just flat out better against man and does not understand zone concepts as well.

 

One thing they started to use more to slow the rush down this game was the delayed handoff, with great success. With our tendencies, one would think a delayed handoff on 3rd and even longer would work like a champ, unless D is playing a spy on 17 which could  complicate things.

 

Think we both agree short yardage has to be better. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

well, throwing it into the endzone there was "taking a shot". I agree, they need to be better on 3rd and 4th and short/goal, as @DrDawkinstein pointed out they seem to continually look for 10 and 20 yard gains when they need 2 yards...that is what is frustrating. Maybe it's the absence of a true slot that really understands zone and how to sit in open space..and right now they don't trust Shakir cause he a rookie(or just not good enough at it) and seems like McKenzie is just flat out better against man and does not understand zone concepts as well.

 

One thing they started to use more to slow the rush down this game was the delayed handoff, with great success. With our tendencies, one would think a delayed handoff on 3rd and even longer would work like a champ, unless D is playing a spy on 17 which could  complicate things.

 

Think we both agree short yardage has to be better. 

 

 

Thanks. Good discussion.

[DrDawkinstein]

7 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

well, throwing it into the endzone there was "taking a shot". I agree, they need to be better on 3rd and 4th and short/goal, as @DrDawkinstein pointed out they seem to continually look for 10 and 20 yard gains when they need 2 yards...that is what is frustrating. Maybe it's the absence of a true slot that really understands zone and how to sit in open space..and right now they don't trust Shakir cause he a rookie(or just not good enough at it) and seems like McKenzie is just flat out better against man and does not understand zone concepts as well.

 

One thing they started to use more to slow the rush down this game was the delayed handoff, with great success. With our tendencies, one would think a delayed handoff on 3rd and even longer would work like a champ, unless D is playing a spy on 17 which could  complicate things.

 

Think we both agree short yardage has to be better. 

 

 

 

One of the group texts had everyone SCREAMING for just one quick slant. We finally got one, I believe to Diggs in like the 4th quarter.

 

Maybe it is not having the slot expert/vet available. I'd hope Hines could make that up with Crowder out.

 

No reason to be throwing 20 yard crossers when we need 2-3 yards. Use the quick slant if we MUST pass.