Bills pass D with 2+ score leads in the 2nd half has been atrocious lately. What gives?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Don't get me wrong, if this defense can be as close to full strength as possible by the playoffs I agree it's likely better than what we've seen in recent weeks.

 

But still think this teams season will end as soon as they see KC again, if not sooner by another team that will be able to exploit this scheme for what it is and fans are setting themselves up for a major disappointment if they think White is going to make that much of a difference in the pass defense especially since he's probably not going to be anywhere close to his preinjury form (and probably whey he's not back yet anyway).

What I’m seeing is teams really picking on Bernard/Dodson when one of edmunds or Milano isn’t playing.  That’s pretty much all the jets did and most of what the Vikings did in the second half after edmunds went down.  If those two guys get healthy come playoff time you’re looking at a completely different defense imo. Also missing Rousseau has clearly hurt the pass rush…he’s been an animal this season 

 

a relatively healthy defense would be MUCH better than this. Even so, Cleveland has a top 5 offense in ypg and people are treating it like Houston went up and down the field on us for some reason

Edited November 21, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Cheektowaga Chad]

47 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is basically correct in terms of the current secondary. 

Yes current

 

When healthy the defensive backs are good

[Pete]

My theory is that every team in NFL knows that the Bills are the best team.  And that pumps up every team we play.  Some teams playing the Bills is their superbowl.  If they can hang with the Bills, there is hope.  I think most every opposing player is so pumped and motivated and brings their best effort.  The Bills are the baddest MFers, and we have a big target on us

[Big Turk]

Bills D has fallen all the way from #1 after the first 5 or 6 games to #13 after this past weekend.

 

Pass D now ranked #20. 

 

Scoring D still remains #4 tho.

 

All in all a trend that needs to be reversed.

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Big Turk

[msw2112]

No question the dropoff is due to injuries.  White aside, because he has not suited up yet, we opened the season with Poyer, Hyde, Dane Jackson, Benford/Elam, Milano, Rousseau, Epenesa, Oliver, Settle, all available and playing at the same time.  They looked like the #1 defense in the league and statistically were.  Hyde is done for the season and all of these other guys have missed time due to injury at one time or another, usually around 3 at a time.

 

I think Baltimore had similar issues last year.  It's a rarity, but it significantly degrades the ability of a unit.  Hopefully they can get everyone back, except Hyde, plus add White, in time for the playoffs.

 

While not completely connected, if the defense is at full go like it was early in the season, chances are that the offense has to do less, there's less pressure on Allen to win the game by himself, fewer balls are forced, fewer chances are taken, and fewer turnovers occur.

[Big Turk]

39 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

No question the dropoff is due to injuries.  White aside, because he has not suited up yet, we opened the season with Poyer, Hyde, Dane Jackson, Benford/Elam, Milano, Rousseau, Epenesa, Oliver, Settle, all available and playing at the same time.  They looked like the #1 defense in the league and statistically were.  Hyde is done for the season and all of these other guys have missed time due to injury at one time or another, usually around 3 at a time.

 

I think Baltimore had similar issues last year.  It's a rarity, but it significantly degrades the ability of a unit.  Hopefully they can get everyone back, except Hyde, plus add White, in time for the playoffs.

 

While not completely connected, if the defense is at full go like it was early in the season, chances are that the offense has to do less, there's less pressure on Allen to win the game by himself, fewer balls are forced, fewer chances are taken, and fewer turnovers occur.

 

You mean other than when there were 4 TOs in the first game of the year?

[Bookie Man]

Somehow Brissett was dropping dimes all over the place. He also had 2 dropped TD passes .

[JK Fan]

7 hours ago, mikemac2001 said:

 No idea why he was covering amari so much that’s a terrible match up. I assume they trusted him more but he was getting torched 

I do not understand why we did not double Amari nor did I understand why we did not double Jefferson last week.

[JK Fan]

This is your classic Bend don't break defense that Frazier runs.  Add to it he runs nickel all the time and you allow teams to run on us and then when they pass he does not change pressure or rarely blitz.  It is easy for opposing coaches to exploit because it is always the same.  It depends on superior play by the players but with so many injuries, the rookies cannot execute like the veterans.

[Boatdrinks]

9 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

People will claim injuries, but the reality is this is what a true 'bend but don't break' defense has always looked like and why I have always loathed this type of scheme vs a traditional 4-3 or 3-4 defense behind a creative defensive coordinator.

 

And quite honestly yesterdays game looked a lot like Bills games of years past under this regime where the final score should have never been as close as it was if not for the defense and scheme.

 

This is why I have a hard time believing this team is truly a SB contender because not much is going to change even when they get some of these other injured players back at some point.

The numbers don’t back up your contention , though. Check out the Bills pass D stats under McD up until around after the bye. I can’t quote them all by memory but it was impressive ypg, TD passes against etc. Numbers were tops in NFL in many categories. The injuries have piled up and had a noticeable impact. You may not like the style , but the numbers don’t lie. 

[hondo in seattle]

We've been missing some very talented players.  The backups seem capable much of the time but fall painfully short in big moments.  

[Utah John]

I think there's a problem on both sides of the ball, that other teams have figured out what our DC and OC will do in a given situation.  Frazier built a superb defensive machine, and when everyone is on the field it's dominant.  But it requires A or A+ players at many positions, which wasn't a problem last year but now there are C or C+ players in multiple positions.  So Frazier is keeping things simple, and the other teams no longer fear the unknown when they venture downfield.  This is no criticism of Frazier, who's not letting the D collapse or be unprepared.  It's just that Frazier can't be full-Frazier with the tools he has at hand.

 

We have the opposite problem with a similar result on offense.  Ken Dorsey spent the offseason dreaming up new plays and formations, and he shot his wad by the third game of the season.  Now he's running the same things over and over, and the other teams have figured out the route combinations, the frequency of which plays get called in various situations, and Josh's personal tendencies.  Now they're sitting on routes and our guys are not getting open.  Our offense problems are not due very much to injuries (though boy wouldn't Crowder help, running from the slot), they're due to inexperience and lack of creativity on the part of our OC.  

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, JK Fan said:

I do not understand why we did not double Amari nor did I understand why we did not double Jefferson last week.

 

We did double Jefferson some. Cooper less so. Cleveland did a nice job of moving him around the formation to make it really hard to key in on him and design your coverage to take him specifically away. Guys like Jefferson and Diggs are so good they get open even when doubled at times.

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, JK Fan said:

This is your classic Bend don't break defense that Frazier runs.  Add to it he runs nickel all the time and you allow teams to run on us and then when they pass he does not change pressure or rarely blitz.  It is easy for opposing coaches to exploit because it is always the same.  It depends on superior play by the players but with so many injuries, the rookies cannot execute like the veterans.

 

They do change up pressure, but yes, they rarely blitz and they don't run a ton of wide 9 style fronts where the ends just pin their ears back. It is fair to say up front they are reasonably vanilla. But the reason it is not normally easy for opposing coaches to exploit is because they are anything but vanilla on the back end. They are one of the most exotic and complex coverage units in the NFL. In the words of Bill Belichick "nobody does a better job of disguising coverages." 

 

The simple reality is they have had to dial what they usually do in terms of disguise back because of injuries in the secondary. Some of that playbook hopefully opens back up when White and Elam return because at the moment they are starting two corners for whom it is a struggle to play anything other than off coverage in a standard cover 2 zone (and when they have tried to they have been burned). But ultimately the key to our disguise has been the Poyer - Hyde axis. And down Micah for the year hurts IMO. So they probably won't have their full playbook available all season. 

 

As for the nickel point I am kinda sick of making it but they play plenty of base defense with nickel personnel where Taron just plays as the strong side 'backer. They did take Taron off the field a bit on Sunday to put Bernard in and run base defense with base personnel. The problem is Taron > Bernard in just about every facet of the game right now (and I don't even think Taron is having his best year). Bernard's head is spinning out there.