Bills pass D with 2+ score leads in the 2nd half has been atrocious lately. What gives?

[Southern_Bills]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Guess the last 5 years were a joke then since the Bills ranked #1 in virtually every pass D category over that timeframe.

 

The ranking is nice, but anytime we get in a spot where we have to have a stop, I'm never confident. 

 

We always get beat in big spots, this year I can give them some slack considering 75% of our secondary is and has been injured. 

 

We are playing 6th round rookies and guys that were out of the league.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

The last two 2nd halves have both been without Tremaine Edmunds. For as much crap as I, and everyone else, have given the guy, the stats don't lie. This defense is better with him on the field. 

 

Thank you for an honest take.  That is sadly a rare thing on this board, and it's a refreshing surprise.  Although I am not suprised its coming from you since you have long been an even keeled and logical poster.  

 

Doesn't mean people have to be on board with resigning him, but it was categorically proven over the last 6 quarters of football that this defense is worse without Edmunds.  And when Edmunds was missing games and playing hurt in the past, the defense was worse.  

 

I am still on the fence about resigning him based on what it might cost and our cap situation.  But I can tell you two things I am sure of...this defense degrades when two of our pending FA's are not in the game...Poyer and Edmunds.  And the fact both may not be back next year is a lot to worry about, especially for the crowd that does NOT want to draft defense early next year.  

 

I just can't fathom Beane will let both walk, and honestly both may be retained still too.  But if we do lose both Poyer and Edmunds and enter the draft with big holes at MLB and Safety to go along with needing WR and OL help, well that is going to be a lot of holes to try and fill in one off season.  

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

The last two 2nd halves have both been without Tremaine Edmunds. For as much crap as I, and everyone else, have given the guy, the stats don't lie. This defense is better with him on the field. 

He’s certainly not TJ watt level good by any means, but missing edmunds ends up being as impactful as when the Steelers are missing TJ watt because Dodson and Bernard are just so bad lol.  The falloff between milano/edmunds and those guys is massive.  
 

I’d love to see a yards allowed comparison between when we have edmunds/milano and  when we’re missing 1 or both of those guys.  It’s gotta be pretty comical.

 

we are kind of trapped in the nickel when we’re missing edmunds or Milano because I can’t even fathom Dodson and Bernard being on the field at the same time.  I can’t imagine Klein not being a better option 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[BullBuchanan]

5 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Guess the last 5 years worth of schedule was a joke then since the Bills ranked #1 in virtually every pass D category over that timeframe.

Except when it mattered though, right? I seem to remember us giving up a game tying drive with 13 seconds on the clock and then allowing that same team to march down the field again for a touchdown to begin OT.

Vanity metric like yards/points allowed don't tell the true story of a defense's performance. If you're a good overall defense but terrible situationally (like the Bills), you aren't a good defense.

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

The last two 2nd halves have both been without Tremaine Edmunds. For as much crap as I, and everyone else, have given the guy, the stats don't lie. This defense is better with him on the field. 

I'm not sure many people are making the argument we should replace Edmunds with Dodson. I would expect a former 1st round pick to be better than an undrafted depth journey and an overdrafted and undersized rookie. It doesn't mean that we don't need better production from the position. Milano had another monster day yesterday with Edmunds out of the lineup, but we didn't see the same from Edmunds when Milano was out.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Except when it mattered though, right? I seem to remember us giving up a game tying drive with 13 seconds on the clock and then allowing that same team to march down the field again for a touchdown to begin OT.

Vanity metric like yards/points allowed don't tell the true story of a defense's performance. If you're a good overall defense but terrible situationally (like the Bills), you aren't a good defense.

I can understand only focusing on the playoff game because it was the most important,  but the bills defense did as good a job as anyone slowing down mahomes in the last two regular season games. I feel like that should be worth at least something. 

[nosejob]

I think...IMO, that when you have rookies and backups in the secondary, you make sure you find a way to lay the wood to the QB. We seem to be stuck on the rush 4 philosophy which is ok if ya got the horses. Thankfully, they did retool the Dline, but it ain't gonna fly every week. Teams are going to adjust and we end up giving pedestrian QBs all day to throw.

 

Yesterday was frustrating even though Brissett has some mobility. They showed on TV McD having what seemed like a P.O.'d convo with Frazier and lo and behold the pass rush kicks up a notch. That exchange was shown plain as day on the telly and my beef with McD is that he is supposed to be  D.C guru and it takes him forever to put a foot up someone's ass. He needs to quit worrying about it and take control sooner than later.

 

Any one of us can predict the opponent's M.O. on offense each week, but nothing seems to change. If McD don't put two cents in now, Goff will tear us up on National TV Thurs.

Edited November 21, 2022 by nosejob

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Fallser said:

Injuries and for some reason we just LOVE prevent defense. 

All prevent defense does is prevent you from winning. I hate the amount of time we're in the nickel.  I hate the fact that we have 1 healthy pass rusher who gets doubled most plays.

[ALLEN1QB]

Bring back Rex !!!!!

[FilthyBeast]

1 hour ago, smuvtalker said:

I liked much of your post, but the above statement, I respectfully disagree with. 

 

We have played damn near the entire season with a huge portion of the defense missing, and on more than one occasion the entire starting secondary out.  I'm sorry but that is simply too much to ask of any team.  The fact that we are 7-3 is IMO nothing short of a miracle.   I do agree with you in that we've stopped getting pressure again with our front four which was a huge issue last season and the reason Beane added Settle, Jones, Lawson, and Phillips.  But remember, Oliver, Settle, AND Phillips are all dealing with injuries sustained at some point this season and none of them are really at 100%....couple that with the fact Rousseau's absence has been grossly underestimated...the guy was playing monster football this year, both in pass rushing (2nd on the team in sacks) and he has proven to be a hell of a run defender....

 

IF we get all our starters back (minus Hyde), and that is a colossally huge IF, everything is going to change.  Everything.  

 

Don't get me wrong, if this defense can be as close to full strength as possible by the playoffs I agree it's likely better than what we've seen in recent weeks.

 

But still think this teams season will end as soon as they see KC again, if not sooner by another team that will be able to exploit this scheme for what it is and fans are setting themselves up for a major disappointment if they think White is going to make that much of a difference in the pass defense especially since he's probably not going to be anywhere close to his preinjury form (and probably whey he's not back yet anyway).

[H2o]

38 minutes ago, ALLEN1QB said:

Bring back Rex !!!!!

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

We used to LOVE when teams had to drop back and pass, it was rare they got to 200 yards passing in a game...now we are seeing 300+ games against us with regularity. It's concerning...more so because the Bills seemingly offer no resistance whatsoever on D for much of the time. The pass rush is dangerously close to going back to the "lots of pressure but no sacks" defense we had with Hughes here. The DLine was ALL OVER Brissett yesterday but only brought him down for a sack once on a blitz by Milano. Is the pass rush not staying in their rush lanes which offers easy escape routes?  Is the D playing too soft thinking the QB won't have time to get the ball deep due to the pressure?

 

I'm not sure what has happened but the turning point was the Steeler game...although we easily won, Pickett had 300+ yards passing. Since that point it's been like a giant sh**show on D when we are up big...players running wide open, easy drives for TDs against us...not sure what the answer is, but it needs to change back to the way we were in the beginning of the year.

 

Here is what I think a lot of people don't realize or just flat our forget about sometimes.  The defense is a cohesive unit.  What one area does makes life easier or harder on other areas of the defense.

 

For example...pass rush is greatly impacted by how well the secondary is playing, especially when we rush our front 4 only so much.  The better the coverage, the more time the pass rush has to get home on the QB.  On the flip side, the secondary benefits greatly when the front 7 are playing well and at least bringing pressure.  The less time a QB has to throw, the less time the secondary has to hold its coverage.  The longer the seconary has to hold the coverage, the bigger advantage the WR tends to have.  Its what makes Josh Allen so good on his ability to extend plays and our WRs like Diggs to come back and find holes for allen to throw to.

 

Now...what we have seen is we have been missing all of, or 3/4 of our starting secondary for many games this season.  We have also been missing Edmunds the last 6 quarters who is a very big part of our pass defense, and our second best pass rusher who already had 6 sacks before missing the last 2 games in Groot.  

 

So we have been missing not just guys, but some of the best players on our D, several of which are amongst the best in the NFL at their respective positions like Hyde, Poyer, and Tre.  Then our #1 pick this year and #1 pick last year have missed time too, both of which have been significant contributors this season in both pass rush and pass defense respectively.  

 

I am much more worried about the neutered offense which has mostly been healthy than I am about our defense which has been crushed by injuries.  

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Here is what I think a lot of people don't realize or just flat our forget about sometimes.  The defense is a cohesive unit.  What one area does makes life easier or harder on other areas of the defense.

 

For example...pass rush is greatly impacted by how well the secondary is playing, especially when we rush our front 4 only so much.  The better the coverage, the more time the pass rush has to get home on the QB.  On the flip side, the secondary benefits greatly when the front 7 are playing well and at least bringing pressure.  The less time a QB has to throw, the less time the secondary has to hold its coverage.  The longer the seconary has to hold the coverage, the bigger advantage the WR tends to have.  Its what makes Josh Allen so good on his ability to extend plays and our WRs like Diggs to come back and find holes for allen to throw to.

 

Now...what we have seen is we have been missing all of, or 3/4 of our starting secondary for many games this season.  We have also been missing Edmunds the last 6 quarters who is a very big part of our pass defense, and our second best pass rusher who already had 6 sacks before missing the last 2 games in Groot.  

 

So we have been missing not just guys, but some of the best players on our D, several of which are amongst the best in the NFL at their respective positions like Hyde, Poyer, and Tre.  Then our #1 pick this year and #1 pick last year have missed time too, both of which have been significant contributors this season in both pass rush and pass defense respectively.  

 

I am much more worried about the neutered offense which has mostly been healthy than I am about our defense which has been crushed by injuries.  

 

You mean the neutered offense that leads the NFL in yards and is 2nd in scoring and has scored 27 or more points in 3 of the last 4 games?

 

Elite team problems. Pretty sure 25+ other teams would KILL to have those problems.

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

You mean the neutered offense that leads the NFL in yards and is 2nd in scoring and has scored 27 or more points in 3 of the last 4 games?

 

Elite team problems. Pretty sure 25+ other teams would KILL to have those problems.

Are you saying our offense hasn’t had issues in the last 4 games?  BecUse it has.  6 Redzone INTs and a lost fumble.  You realize we have scored just one second half TD in the past 4 games?

 

So yeah, it’s been an issue.  And Josh came into this game looking like he over corrected to being too cautious.  We had a pretty awful first quarter and a half.  
 

Season totals don’t tell the picture of the most recent 4 game.  Come on, you’re a good poster, I know you realize this.  

[BobbyC81]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Only game he had over 300 yards passing and 3 TDs this year was against the Bills...

 

He had 212 against the Fins last week and 266 against the Pats, although he was 21 of 45 with a completion percentage of under 50%.

 

not used to seeing the Bills struggle like this in pass D.

 

He played well but we made him look better than he was.

I hate zone defense.  Bills rush 4.  Opponent has 5 O-linemen plus QB so 5 receivers vs 7 defenders.  How do these receivers run wide open?
 

Last week vs Minnesota there was a pass to Hockenson for a first down.  There were 5 Bills defenders in the camera shot.  How do they let him catch it?

[GunnerBill]

Missing their whole secondary the last two weeks and 3/4s of it yesterday.

 

That is the answer. End thread.

[Chuck Schick]

For all the doom and gloom about the late game D....huge goal line stand and INT vs Balt; interception of Mahomes in final minute to protect 3 pt lead; Goal line stand vs Minn with < 1:00 up 4, and then again in OT to give the offense a chance..

I know it hasn't been all roses, but come on.  

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

My opinion is: Our defensive backs aren't very good but are generally in the right position

 

Just takes a team a half to test them, and when they do they find it quite easy 

 

This is basically correct in terms of the current secondary. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 hours ago, nosejob said:

I think...IMO, that when you have rookies and backups in the secondary, you make sure you find a way to lay the wood to the QB. We seem to be stuck on the rush 4 philosophy which is ok if ya got the horses. Thankfully, they did retool the Dline, but it ain't gonna fly every week. Teams are going to adjust and we end up giving pedestrian QBs all day to throw.

 

Yesterday was frustrating even though Brissett has some mobility. They showed on TV McD having what seemed like a P.O.'d convo with Frazier and lo and behold the pass rush kicks up a notch. That exchange was shown plain as day on the telly and my beef with McD is that he is supposed to be  D.C guru and it takes him forever to put a foot up someone's ass. He needs to quit worrying about it and take control sooner than later.

 

Any one of us can predict the opponent's M.O. on offense each week, but nothing seems to change. If McD don't put two cents in now, Goff will tear us up on National TV Thurs.

I think people are really sleeping on how good Cleveland is in the trenches.  Brissett has been playing well for them all year too.  Our win over them seems around here to not only be viewed as meaningless but it seems to have somehow flipped the other way and is being viewed as a negative?

 

Cleveland is the exact type of team that could give us issues.  Detroit has a great offensive line also but their defensive line is nowhere near as good as the browns.  
 

I also don’t think Goff will be able to hit on even half those difficult throws brissett made on Sunday.  

 

 

 

[Irish Dave]

3rd or 4th & Long is basically our worst nightmare. Teams seem to convert these about 85% of the time.  We ALMOST get a sack, we miss tackling him by an inch and he throws a prayer ball that our TERRIBLE DBs are TOO SHORT to stop and seem to always allow a catch on.  The Vikings Jefferson 4th down catch and last year's Hail Murray are just the most memorable examples.  I just don't get it how we KEEP letting teams extend drives like this.   I walk away from the TV every time because I can't watch.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Irish Dave