Week 12: Bills at Lions on Thanksgiving

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, SCBills said:

Given teams are playing us to take away wow plays, if we stop turning it over and get better in the red zone … this offense will methodically score 40 ppg.   
 

*If Allen is willing to patient. 
 

Then, at some point, teams will come out of that defense.  Then… fireworks.  
 

It’s up to Allen really.  For all the issues in roster construction we may have, if the main pieces stay healthy (knock on wood), Allen’s physical traits are the only thing in the NFL on par with Reid/Mahomes genius. 

I can’t help but think the ‘patience’ issue and ‘inability to punch it in the end zone in a goal to go’ situation are directly linked.  seems like we are more proficient scoring tds in the 10-20 yard line area of the red zone than the 0-10. If we can get better on the offensive line like we did late last season everything is gonna fall into place imo

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Big Turk]

8 minutes ago, Logic said:

Thanks for the numbers.

It doesn't change my opinion of the things lacking in Dorsey's playcalling, though.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story.

In this case, I concede that the Bills offense, as a whole, is very productive, and its rankings and statistics prove it. Nevertheless, I feel they can be MORE productive. I feel like they could be 9-1 right now. I feel like they can re-establish their grip on the AFC if they can find ways to get more productivity out of their complementary pieces. This isn't a controversial opinion. Everyone from Bills fans to national analysts to the play-by-play guys for Bills games have been saying the same.

Hines, Cook, McKenzie. Lot of speed and explosiveness there. Find a way to use it!

 

You are absolutely right in terms of them being 9-1...according to DVOA numbers, that is what they are expected to be, they have the highest expected win total in the NFL. I assume the one loss would be to the Jets, but they had every chance to win that game and had a 14-3 lead in the 2nd half.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

24 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Bills are better in pretty much every offensive category under Dorsey than under Daboll from last year, and especially on the Offensive Drive stat numbers. Average over 7 yards per drive more in terms of yards. Doesn't seem like much but it's a LOT considering the number of drives per game.

Daboll also faced an absolute joke of a schedule last year which I don’t see talked about too much.  Crazy this team which is about half as healthy as the team last year playing a schedule that’s twice as hard is likely going to win one more game or possibly even two 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Big Turk]

16 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I agree. I also credit Dorsey/McDermott for recognizing that the Browns have a terrible run D and actually running the ball. Detroit is bad at both run and pass D, so we'll see what the game plan is for this week.

 

Goes back to my insistence that the Bills are not bad at running the ball, they simply too often choose not to, or choose to do so in ways that they are not that good at(ie, up the middle instead of more edge ruins, inside zone versus pin and pull runs).  When they focus on that, and especially focus on doing what they are good at, they can do it and do it well.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Big Turk

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I can’t help but think the ‘patience’ issue and ‘inability to punch it in the end zone in a goal to go’ situation are directly linked.  seems like we are more proficient scoring tds in the 10-20 yard line area of the red zone than the 0-10. If we can get better on the offensive line like we did late last season everything is gonna fall into place imo

 

 

 

 

 

 

Definitely crossed my mind when we got to the red zone in the Vikings OT, with a chance to get to “and goal” but instead tried throwing lasers into the end zone from 15-20 yards out. 

[Logic]

8 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

You are absolutely right in terms of them being 9-1...according to DVOA numbers, that is what they are expected to be, they have the highest expected win total in the NFL. I assume the one loss would be to the Jets, but they had every chance to win that game and had a 14-3 lead in the 2nd half.

I guess I figure the one loss they have would be to Miami.

They shot themselves in the foot with stupid mistakes that game, but there was enough else going on -- heat, attrition, the Dolphins making a few big plays -- that I felt like it was a "legitimate" loss.

The Jets and Vikings losses should not have happened, in my eyes.

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

I guess I figure the one loss they have would be to Miami.

They shot themselves in the foot with stupid mistakes that game, but there was enough else going on -- heat, attrition, the Dolphins making a few big plays -- that I felt like it was a "legitimate" loss.

The Jets and Vikings losses should not have happened, in my eyes.

 

I think the Dolphins was the game they had to do the most to lose in terms of not making plays that were there and how they still dominated the game even with all the injuries, heat and 4th quarter players dropping like flies...

 

Jets game is the one I'd say they didn't do enough to win even tho they were the better team.

[Warriorspikes51]

5 minutes ago, Logic said:

I guess I figure the one loss they have would be to Miami.

They shot themselves in the foot with stupid mistakes that game, but there was enough else going on -- heat, attrition, the Dolphins making a few big plays -- that I felt like it was a "legitimate" loss.

The Jets and Vikings losses should not have happened, in my eyes.

Agreed. The Bills (mostly Josh) handed Jets and Vikings games away. 

[Goin Breakdown]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

and the lack of use will continue

 

"Yeah it's important to us that we trade assets for players we think could make an impact on our team  however, we chose not to use them. We want to keep teams guessing if "this will be the week"  we'll see how the week plays out  for now we'll just keep things vanilla"

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Goin Breakdown

[Warcodered]

 

[boyst]

51 minutes ago, Logic said:

My main critique of Dorsey so far is that he doesn't seem to know how to get the most out of the Bills' complementary pieces.

With Daboll, I felt like he used every single tool in the tool chest. He had plays for Diggs, plays for Beasley, plays for McKenzie...we even had third string tight ends and swing tackles catching touchdowns.

 

With Dorsey...I don't get that feeling. 

My concern started with the lack of usage of James Cook in the passing game. Rookie or not, he was brought in to be an explosive addition as a pass catcher. Even now that he's finally starting to get some usage, it looks like he just runs the same plays as Singletary. The lack of creativity in the usage of Cook, which has now extended to the lack of creativity so far in the usage of Hines, is confounding. 

 

In Cook, Hines, and McKenzie, the Bills have quite a bit of speed and explosiveness. For an offense that has lacked punch the past several weeks, speed and explosiveness seem like much needed commodities. And yet, week after week, I don't see many/any manufactured touches for these guys. It's not rocket surgery. As others have said, the McDaniels and Shanahans and Reids of the world don't seem to have an issue getting the ball into the fast guys' hands.

I'll give Dorsey credit for one thing that he's better at than Daboll, seemingly: Getting the ball to Stefon Diggs no matter what the defense is doing. Too often under Daboll, Diggs would all but disappear for whole games. That doesn't seem to happen any more. The way that Diggs is moved around the formation and seems all but immune to being erased now is awesome. It's the usage of the REST of the offensive skill weapons that has been lacking.

I like that he kept up a lot of pre snap motion making it easier for Josh to see the defense but he isn't taking advantage of that by using strengths against weaknesses and using movement to create momentum. 

 

Last year we would see McKenzie start motion to finish at the snap and pull and the entire defense with him. This opened up the routes underneath to Knox and Singleterry when McKenzie wasn't able to split the seam of coverage.

 

This is a concern I have of Dorsey, especially as a former QB. We have seen a lot of zone coverage against us due to defenses keeping eyes on the backfield. I don't and can't believe he is unable to understand seams of defenses and how to beat them. The guy was one of the most successful college QB's of all time while, with no offense to him, lacking a lot of physical traits and skill.

 

With regard to not using the tools - I hope it is something to do with not having the tools he wanted, which touches in my next point to follow.  He doesn't have Crowder, Doyle, and a 2nd TE besides Sweeney and the disappearance of the Bowling Green guy. We pushed to get OJ Howard and Dorsey has said numerous times he wants a 2TE offensive unit. We don't use our primary TE so I cannot figure out plan for 2 TE's. Crowder being injured is the most amazing thing to me - I really wonder what they were planning with him. In Jersey he was tremendous at the check down routes and it may go down as what could have and should have been with him. Maybe we can find out in the playoffs?

 

The final point I make: did Dorsey want Crowder, Howard, Hines, and Cook? Who made those calls? We added talent with those 4 players but ultimately we saw we already have talent surpassing them. If he is back in 2023 I am anxious to see who he goes to bat for in bringing into Buffalo. More curiously I am wondering if he will even have a choice to bring in the players he may want since the focus must be on OL in both FA and the draft. 

[chongli]

45 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Silver vs white?  Bills need to be in blue I feel.

 

Yes, wouldn't silver vs. white cause problems if anyone still uses a black and white TV? I know in the color rush game vs. the Jets (Bills in all red and Jets in all green) in 2014 I think it was, the announcer apologized to fans using a black and white TV since they wouldn't be able to tell the teams apart. 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

Yes, wouldn't silver vs. white cause problems if anyone still uses a black and white TV? I know in the color rush game vs. the Jets (Bills in all red and Jets in all green) in 2014 I think it was, the announcer apologized to fans using a black and white TV since they wouldn't be able to tell the teams apart. 

 

The Christmas color game!  Colored blind people just saw gray.  

[Big Turk]

21 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Agreed. The Bills (mostly Josh) handed Jets and Vikings games away. 

 

About 7 players handed the Dolphins game away...that was a true team effort. 😂

Edited November 22, 2022 by Big Turk

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

28 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Agreed. The Bills (mostly Josh) handed Jets and Vikings games away. 

Mostly josh huh?  Guess we saw that game differently lol considering the constant pressure he was under every play in the second half since we were missing 5 offensive linemen I really think that was one of the best efforts of his career.  I can’t fault people for focusing on that late td he missed though so this is more of a ‘respectfully disagree’ situation 😂
 

something like the jets game I’d feel better saying ‘josh cost us this one’ 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[DCbillsfan]

1 hour ago, finn said:

They really miss Beasley, or at least Beasley in his prime. He was a zone killer, and the Bills don't have anyone like that. If you take Diggs out, like the Browns seemed to, and there's not much left. A better run game will help, but Beane gambled that either McKenzie or Crowder could step up. Hasn't worked out that way. Like other posters here, I'd say it's time for Shakir, Cook, and Hines. 

I agree.  I fully expected them to take a WR in the 2nd round to make up for Beasley's departure.

[Logic]

10 minutes ago, boyst said:

I like that he kept up a lot of pre snap motion making it easier for Josh to see the defense but he isn't taking advantage of that by using strengths against weaknesses and using movement to create momentum. 

 

Last year we would see McKenzie start motion to finish at the snap and pull and the entire defense with him. This opened up the routes underneath to Knox and Singleterry when McKenzie wasn't able to split the seam of coverage.

 

This is a concern I have of Dorsey, especially as a former QB. We have seen a lot of zone coverage against us due to defenses keeping eyes on the backfield. I don't and can't believe he is unable to understand seams of defenses and how to beat them. The guy was one of the most successful college QB's of all time while, with no offense to him, lacking a lot of physical traits and skill.

 

With regard to not using the tools - I hope it is something to do with not having the tools he wanted, which touches in my next point to follow.  He doesn't have Crowder, Doyle, and a 2nd TE besides Sweeney and the disappearance of the Bowling Green guy. We pushed to get OJ Howard and Dorsey has said numerous times he wants a 2TE offensive unit. We don't use our primary TE so I cannot figure out plan for 2 TE's. Crowder being injured is the most amazing thing to me - I really wonder what they were planning with him. In Jersey he was tremendous at the check down routes and it may go down as what could have and should have been with him. Maybe we can find out in the playoffs?

 

The final point I make: did Dorsey want Crowder, Howard, Hines, and Cook? Who made those calls? We added talent with those 4 players but ultimately we saw we already have talent surpassing them. If he is back in 2023 I am anxious to see who he goes to bat for in bringing into Buffalo. More curiously I am wondering if he will even have a choice to bring in the players he may want since the focus must be on OL in both FA and the draft. 

Thanks for this.

All of what you say may be true, and if so, it adds another concern: Lack of adaptability.

 

I think the best offensive coordinators build their offense around the personnel they have. If they don't happen to have their ideal personnel, they adapt to what they DO have and make it work anyway. In fairness to Dorsey, the Bills are #2 in YPG and PPG and #3 in Yards Per Play. So I can't exactly say that he's NOT making it work.

Still, whether Cook, Hines, and McKenzie are his idea of great personnel or not, it's who he's got, so I'd like to see him dial up some winning plays for them.

[2003Contenders]

38 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I think the Dolphins was the game they had to do the most to lose in terms of not making plays that were there and how they still dominated the game even with all the injuries, heat and 4th quarter players dropping like flies...

 

Jets game is the one I'd say they didn't do enough to win even tho they were the better team.

 

I definitely agree. It took some crazy things to happen in both the Miami and Minny games to proverbially ***** defeat from the jaws of victory. In the Jets game, the Jets honestly out-played and out-coached the Bills -- won the game in the battle of the trenches as well as the time-of-possession.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[clayboy54]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

My main critique of Dorsey so far is that he doesn't seem to know how to get the most out of the Bills' complementary pieces.

With Daboll, I felt like he used every single tool in the tool chest. He had plays for Diggs, plays for Beasley, plays for McKenzie...we even had third string tight ends and swing tackles catching touchdowns.

 

With Dorsey...I don't get that feeling. 

My concern started with the lack of usage of James Cook in the passing game. Rookie or not, he was brought in to be an explosive addition as a pass catcher. Even now that he's finally starting to get some usage, it looks like he just runs the same plays as Singletary. The lack of creativity in the usage of Cook, which has now extended to the lack of creativity so far in the usage of Hines, is confounding. 

 

In Cook, Hines, and McKenzie, the Bills have quite a bit of speed and explosiveness. For an offense that has lacked punch the past several weeks, speed and explosiveness seem like much needed commodities. And yet, week after week, I don't see many/any manufactured touches for these guys. It's not rocket surgery. As others have said, the McDaniels and Shanahans and Reids of the world don't seem to have an issue getting the ball into the fast guys' hands.

I'll give Dorsey credit for one thing that he's better at than Daboll, seemingly: Getting the ball to Stefon Diggs no matter what the defense is doing. Too often under Daboll, Diggs would all but disappear for whole games. That doesn't seem to happen any more. The way that Diggs is moved around the formation and seems all but immune to being erased now is awesome. It's the usage of the REST of the offensive skill weapons that has been lacking.

I follow your thought process. However, how do we know that it’s just not an issue where the pieces can’t grasp the playbook? Or maybe they just look bad in practice. I don’t think that Dorsey or McDermott is just being stubborn and penalizing the team because they don’t like somebody. That’s something a guy like Bill OBrian would do.

 

Our playbook is known to be complex. It also is likely very different than college or WCO teams, as an example. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine that some of these guys are not able to grasp all the concepts in their first weeks, months or even year on the team. These guys are often not the sharpest knives in the drawer, remember.