T master Posted November 26, 2022 Posted November 26, 2022 26 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: I get that you don’t understand how the law works, and if you still think the investigation was based on the Steele Dossier, then you’re certainly getting bad information from untrustworthy sources. But I would encourage you (and anyone who thinks the Russia investigation was a hoax) to read through just the table of contents in volume one. Anytime you see a member of the Trump campaign mentioned, switch it to the Clinton campaign. Anytime you see a Russian mentioned, switch it to China. And then ask yourself if you’d want those activities investigated. Only because the law usually has a total lack of common sense & then there is the fact that lawyers learn how to twist any statement to or sentence to say what they would like it to but the Steele Dossier was proved to be paid for & full of BS but that was from the beginning their reason for having it now go on for the better part of 5+ yrs . I am so glad that we have those like you that are so much smarter than the rest of us to understand how those in place to write laws in all of their twisted words that they make no sense when it comes to looking at anything with a common sense mind set . Thank you so much for your intelligence !!
Doc Posted November 26, 2022 Posted November 26, 2022 20 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: So did you call for the Clinton/China connection to be investigated? What about the Bidens and Ukraine?
Billz4ever Posted November 26, 2022 Posted November 26, 2022 31 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: I get that you don’t understand how the law works, and if you still think the investigation was based on the Steele Dossier, then you’re certainly getting bad information from untrustworthy sources. But I would encourage you (and anyone who thinks the Russia investigation was a hoax) to read through just the table of contents in volume one. Anytime you see a member of the Trump campaign mentioned, switch it to the Clinton campaign. Anytime you see a Russian mentioned, switch it to China. And then ask yourself if you’d want those activities investigated. Utter nonsense. These are excerpts directly from the Mueller report. If there was legit anything there, the DOJ could have been waiting to arrest Trump after the very second Biden was sworn in. Russia collusion was an invention of the Clinton campaign. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/20/politics/hillary-clinton-robby-mook-fbi 1 2
ChiGoose Posted November 26, 2022 Posted November 26, 2022 4 minutes ago, Billz4ever said: Utter nonsense. These are excerpts directly from the Mueller report. If there was legit anything there, the DOJ could have been waiting to arrest Trump after the very second Biden was sworn in. Russia collusion was an invention of the Clinton campaign. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/20/politics/hillary-clinton-robby-mook-fbi Probably the most important part for understanding the report is in the intro: ”In evaluating whether evidence about collective action of multiple individuals constituted a crime, we applied the framework of conspiracy law, not the concept of “collusion.” In so doing, the Office recognized that the word “collud[e]” was used in communications with the Acting Attorney General confirming certain aspects of the investigation’s scope and that the term has frequently been invoked in public reporting about the investigation. But collusion is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law. For those reasons, the Office’s focus in analyzing questions of joint criminal liability was on conspiracy as defined in federal law. In connection with that analysis, we addressed the factual question whether members of the Trump Campaign “coordinat[ed]”—a term that appears in the appointment order—with Russian election interference activities. Like collusion, “coordination” does not have a settled definition in federal criminal law. We understood coordination to require an agreement—tacit or express—between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference. That requires more than the two parties taking actionsthatwereinformedbyorresponsivetotheother’sactionsorinterests. We applied the term coordination in that sense when stating in the report that the investigation did not establish that the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.” Essentially, because “collusion” is not a crime defined by statute, Mueller instead investigated through the lens of conspiracy, which requires an agreement. He then laid out dozens of connections between the Trump Campaign and Russians. But he was unable to find that they made an agreement to work together. So what you have is a campaign that was crawling with Russians but because the Special Counsel was unable to identify an actual agreement between the parties, it wasn’t a clear violation of the law. 1
Billz4ever Posted November 26, 2022 Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Probably the most important part for understanding the report is in the intro: ”In evaluating whether evidence about collective action of multiple individuals constituted a crime, we applied the framework of conspiracy law, not the concept of “collusion.” In so doing, the Office recognized that the word “collud[e]” was used in communications with the Acting Attorney General confirming certain aspects of the investigation’s scope and that the term has frequently been invoked in public reporting about the investigation. But collusion is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law. For those reasons, the Office’s focus in analyzing questions of joint criminal liability was on conspiracy as defined in federal law. In connection with that analysis, we addressed the factual question whether members of the Trump Campaign “coordinat[ed]”—a term that appears in the appointment order—with Russian election interference activities. Like collusion, “coordination” does not have a settled definition in federal criminal law. We understood coordination to require an agreement—tacit or express—between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference. That requires more than the two parties taking actionsthatwereinformedbyorresponsivetotheother’sactionsorinterests. We applied the term coordination in that sense when stating in the report that the investigation did not establish that the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.” Essentially, because “collusion” is not a crime defined by statute, Mueller instead investigated through the lens of conspiracy, which requires an agreement. He then laid out dozens of connections between the Trump Campaign and Russians. But he was unable to find that they made an agreement to work together. So what you have is a campaign that was crawling with Russians but because the Special Counsel was unable to identify an actual agreement between the parties, it wasn’t a clear violation of the law. Conspiracy is a charge, and they couldn't prove that either. The excerpts I posted show there was no evidence and there was no link established. No matter what words you want to use, they had no case. A loose connection with Russians isn't proof of anything. Trump was a businessman. Of course he had interaction with Russians. There was no evidence of anything nefarious. You saying "it wasn't a clear violation of the law" is an admission that there was no actual crime committed and they could never prove it in a court of law. This entire thing is a giant exercise in semantics. If the report itself showed, no "collusion", "conspiracy", "coordination", "agreement" or anything of the sort, where's the crime? It's like people are claiming all those things happened, even though there's no evidence of any of it, and want history to ultimately reflect there was simply to keep the (false) narrative alive. Edited November 26, 2022 by Billz4ever 1 2
ChiGoose Posted November 26, 2022 Posted November 26, 2022 22 minutes ago, Billz4ever said: Conspiracy is a charge, and they couldn't prove that either. The excerpts I posted show there was no evidence and there was no link established. No matter what words you want to use, they had no case. A loose connection with Russians isn't proof of anything. Trump was a businessman. Of course he had interaction with Russians. There was no evidence of anything nefarious. You saying "it wasn't a clear violation of the law" is an admission that there was no actual crime committed and they could never prove it in a court of law. There’s a difference between saying something should be investigated and saying someone should be prosecuted. The list of contacts between Russians and the Trump campaign is extensive. It would have been insane not to investigate: “D. Trump Campaign and the Dissemination of Hacked Materials b. Contacts with the Campaign about WikiLeaks d. WikiLeaks’s October 7, 2016 Release of Stolen Podesta Emails e. Donald Trump Jr. Interaction with WikiLeaks 2. Other Potential Campaign Interest in Russian Hacked Materials a. Henry Oknyansky (a/k/a Henry Greenberg) b. Campaign Efforts to Obtain Deleted Clinton Emails IV. RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT LINKS TO AND CONTACTS WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN A. Campaign Period (September 2015 – November 8, 2016) 1. Trump Tower Moscow Project a. Trump Tower Moscow Venture with the Crocus Group (2013-2014) b. Communications with I.C. Expert Investment Company and Giorgi Rtskhiladze (Summer and Fall 2015) c. Letter of Intent and Contacts to Russian Government (October 2015- January 2016) i. Trump Signs the Letter of Intent on behalf of the Trump Organization” ii. Post LOI Contacts with Individuals in Russia d. Discussions about Russia Travel by Michael Cohen or Candidate Trump (December 2015-June 2016) i. Sater’s Overtures to Cohen to Travel to Russia ii. Candidate Trump’s Opportunities to Travel to Russia 2. George Papadopoulos a. Origins of Campaign Work b. Initial Russia-Related Contacts c. March 31 Foreign Policy Team Meeting d. George Papadopoulos Learns That Russia Has “Dirt” in the Form of Clinton Emails e. Russia-Related Communications With The Campaign Trump Campaign Knowledge of“Dirt” g. Additional George Papadopoulos Contact 3. Carter Page a. Background b. Origins of and Early Campaign Work c. Carter Page’s July 2016 Trip To Moscow d. Later Campaign Work and Removal from the Campaign 4. Dimitri Simes and the Center for the National Interest a. CNI and Dimitri Simes Connect with the Trump Campaign b. National Interest Hosts a Foreign Policy Speech at the Mayflower Hotel c. Jeff Sessions’s Post-Speech Interactions with CNI d. Jared Kushner’s Continuing Contacts with Simes 5. June 9, 2016 Meeting at Trump Tower Setting Up the June 9 Meeting i. Outreach to Donald Trump Jr ii. Awareness of the Meeting Within the Campaign b. The Events of June 9, 2016 i. Arrangements for the Meeting ii. Conduct of the Meeting c. Post-June 9 Events 6. Events at the Republican National Convention a. Ambassador Kislyak’s Encounters with Senator Sessions and J.D. Gordon the Week of the RNC b. Change to Republican Party Platform 7. Post-Convention Contacts with Kislyak a. Ambassador Kislyak Invites J.D. Gordon to Breakfast at the Ambassador’s Residence b. Senator Sessions’s September 2016 Meeting with Ambassador Kislyak 8. Paul Manafort a. Paul Manafort’s Ties to Russia and Ukraine i. Oleg Deripaska Consulting Work ii. Political Consulting Work iii. Konstantin Kilimnik b. Contacts during Paul Manafort’s Time with the Trump Campaign i. Paul Manafort Joins the Campaign ii. Paul Manafort’s Campaign-Period Contacts iii. Paul Manafort’s Two Campaign-Period Meetings with Konstantin Kilimnik in the United States c. Post-Resignation Activities B. Post-Election and Transition-Period Contacts 1. Immediate Post-Election Activity a. Outreach from the Russian Government b. High-Level Encouragement of Contacts through Alternative Channels 2. Kirill Dmitriev’s Transition-Era Outreach to the Incoming Administration a. Background b. Kirill Dmitriev’s Post-Election Contacts With the Incoming Administration c. Erik Prince and Kirill Dmitriev Meet in the Seychelles i. George Nader and Erik Prince Arrange Seychelles Meeting with Dmitriev ii. The Seychelles Meetings iii. Erik Prince’s Meeting with Steve Bannon after the Seychelles Trip d. Kirill Dmitriev’s Post-Election Contact with Rick Gerson Regarding U.S.-Russia Relations 3. Ambassador Kislyak’s Meeting with Jared Kushner and Michael Flynn in Trump Tower Following the Electionl 4. Jared Kushner’s Meeting with Sergey Gorkov l 5. Petr Aven’s Outreach Efforts to the Transition Team l 6. Carter Page Contact with Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich 7. Contacts With and Through Michael T. Flynnl a. United Nations Vote on Israeli Settlements b. U.S. Sanctions Against Russia” Thats a LOT of contact between the Russians and the Trump campaign. And it resulted in several people being indicted and convicted of crimes. But as I noted, Mueller couldn’t find any actual agreement between Trump and Russia. So no indictment post-presidency (though Mueller did note that Trump should have been impeached for Obstruction of Justice, which he very clearly committed). If you can read through all of those connections and still think it was inappropriate for the FBI to investigate them, then you’re just a partisan. 2 1
Billz4ever Posted November 26, 2022 Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 22 hours ago, ChiGoose said: There’s a difference between saying something should be investigated and saying someone should be prosecuted. The list of contacts between Russians and the Trump campaign is extensive. It would have been insane not to investigate: “D. Trump Campaign and the Dissemination of Hacked Materials b. Contacts with the Campaign about WikiLeaks d. WikiLeaks’s October 7, 2016 Release of Stolen Podesta Emails e. Donald Trump Jr. Interaction with WikiLeaks 2. Other Potential Campaign Interest in Russian Hacked Materials a. Henry Oknyansky (a/k/a Henry Greenberg) b. Campaign Efforts to Obtain Deleted Clinton Emails IV. RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT LINKS TO AND CONTACTS WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN A. Campaign Period (September 2015 – November 8, 2016) 1. Trump Tower Moscow Project a. Trump Tower Moscow Venture with the Crocus Group (2013-2014) b. Communications with I.C. Expert Investment Company and Giorgi Rtskhiladze (Summer and Fall 2015) c. Letter of Intent and Contacts to Russian Government (October 2015- January 2016) i. Trump Signs the Letter of Intent on behalf of the Trump Organization” ii. Post LOI Contacts with Individuals in Russia d. Discussions about Russia Travel by Michael Cohen or Candidate Trump (December 2015-June 2016) i. Sater’s Overtures to Cohen to Travel to Russia ii. Candidate Trump’s Opportunities to Travel to Russia 2. George Papadopoulos a. Origins of Campaign Work b. Initial Russia-Related Contacts c. March 31 Foreign Policy Team Meeting d. George Papadopoulos Learns That Russia Has “Dirt” in the Form of Clinton Emails e. Russia-Related Communications With The Campaign Trump Campaign Knowledge of“Dirt” g. Additional George Papadopoulos Contact 3. Carter Page a. Background b. Origins of and Early Campaign Work c. Carter Page’s July 2016 Trip To Moscow d. Later Campaign Work and Removal from the Campaign 4. Dimitri Simes and the Center for the National Interest a. CNI and Dimitri Simes Connect with the Trump Campaign b. National Interest Hosts a Foreign Policy Speech at the Mayflower Hotel c. Jeff Sessions’s Post-Speech Interactions with CNI d. Jared Kushner’s Continuing Contacts with Simes 5. June 9, 2016 Meeting at Trump Tower Setting Up the June 9 Meeting i. Outreach to Donald Trump Jr ii. Awareness of the Meeting Within the Campaign b. The Events of June 9, 2016 i. Arrangements for the Meeting ii. Conduct of the Meeting c. Post-June 9 Events 6. Events at the Republican National Convention a. Ambassador Kislyak’s Encounters with Senator Sessions and J.D. Gordon the Week of the RNC b. Change to Republican Party Platform 7. Post-Convention Contacts with Kislyak a. Ambassador Kislyak Invites J.D. Gordon to Breakfast at the Ambassador’s Residence b. Senator Sessions’s September 2016 Meeting with Ambassador Kislyak 8. Paul Manafort a. Paul Manafort’s Ties to Russia and Ukraine i. Oleg Deripaska Consulting Work ii. Political Consulting Work iii. Konstantin Kilimnik b. Contacts during Paul Manafort’s Time with the Trump Campaign i. Paul Manafort Joins the Campaign ii. Paul Manafort’s Campaign-Period Contacts iii. Paul Manafort’s Two Campaign-Period Meetings with Konstantin Kilimnik in the United States c. Post-Resignation Activities B. Post-Election and Transition-Period Contacts 1. Immediate Post-Election Activity a. Outreach from the Russian Government b. High-Level Encouragement of Contacts through Alternative Channels 2. Kirill Dmitriev’s Transition-Era Outreach to the Incoming Administration a. Background b. Kirill Dmitriev’s Post-Election Contacts With the Incoming Administration c. Erik Prince and Kirill Dmitriev Meet in the Seychelles i. George Nader and Erik Prince Arrange Seychelles Meeting with Dmitriev ii. The Seychelles Meetings iii. Erik Prince’s Meeting with Steve Bannon after the Seychelles Trip d. Kirill Dmitriev’s Post-Election Contact with Rick Gerson Regarding U.S.-Russia Relations 3. Ambassador Kislyak’s Meeting with Jared Kushner and Michael Flynn in Trump Tower Following the Electionl 4. Jared Kushner’s Meeting with Sergey Gorkov l 5. Petr Aven’s Outreach Efforts to the Transition Team l 6. Carter Page Contact with Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich 7. Contacts With and Through Michael T. Flynnl a. United Nations Vote on Israeli Settlements b. U.S. Sanctions Against Russia” Thats a LOT of contact between the Russians and the Trump campaign. And it resulted in several people being indicted and convicted of crimes. But as I noted, Mueller couldn’t find any actual agreement between Trump and Russia. So no indictment post-presidency (though Mueller did note that Trump should have been impeached for Obstruction of Justice, which he very clearly committed). If you can read through all of those connections and still think it was inappropriate for the FBI to investigate them, then you’re just a partisan. The FBI should've investigated, and they did investigate, except even long after they knew there was nothing there, they then lied to the FISA Court to extend the surveillance warrant and altered an email to make it look like Carter Page was interacting with the Russians on his own rather than acting as a CIA operational contact. https://nypost.com/2020/08/19/ex-fbi-lawyer-pleads-guilty-to-falsifying-documents-in-russia-probe/ They relied heavily on the Steele Dossier and Andy McCabe is on record that without the Dossier, there would've been no warrant. https://nypost.com/2020/11/10/mccabe-admits-he-wouldnt-have-signed-off-on-carter-page-warrant/ And then after the FBI investigated it, we had a 2+year special counsel investigate it and they reached the same conclusion the FBI did, which was there was nothing illegal. It was all for show and they ruined people's lives over it. Edited November 27, 2022 by Billz4ever 1 2
Kelly101 Posted December 6, 2022 Posted December 6, 2022 This time finally and really really really we got him! LOL 1 2
Tiberius Posted December 6, 2022 Posted December 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, Kelly101 said: This time finally and really really really we got him! LOL This time the jury won't be the GOP Senate LOL 🤣 1
Doc Posted December 6, 2022 Posted December 6, 2022 45 minutes ago, Tiberius said: This time the jury won't be the GOP Senate LOL 🤣 True. Then again, it won't be any jury.
Doc Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 On 11/22/2022 at 2:31 PM, Doc said: Wake me when they finally got him. With the recent news about Joke, I'm sleeping even more soundly...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Well thanks for this Karl Rove https://www.mediaite.com/news/biden-gets-assist-on-fox-news-as-karl-rove-busts-out-white-board-to-explain-why-trumps-classified-docs-issue-is-worse/ Edited January 12, 2023 by redtail hawk
Doc Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, redtail hawk said: Well thanks for this Karl Rove https://www.mediaite.com/news/biden-gets-assist-on-fox-news-as-karl-rove-busts-out-white-board-to-explain-why-trumps-classified-docs-issue-is-worse/ This was from Tuesday. Before they found a 2nd cache of documents. Time for a raid of his homes and such.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 16 minutes ago, Doc said: This was from Tuesday. Before they found a 2nd cache of documents. Time for a raid of his homes and such. Rove's reasoning stands despite the newly discovered cache. Your reasoning was also the same before and after it.
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