Seriously, how complicated is our offense

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Davis is decent but we need better.  Hines is very fast and because of that can and has been explosive with the ball.

 

like who?

 

Also, where in 2021 stats do you see evidence of Hine's explosiveness?

[Einstein]

32 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

That's all well and good, but limits you as a play caller. All the choice concepts we have would have to be thrown out the window for instance. RB is a tough spot if they aren't familiar with the offense. 

 

The idea is to use the player and his talents and abilities quickly, but not in every situation until he learns the offense.

 

Hines would not need to be relied on for 60 plays a game. You wouldn’t need to limit your play calling for every play.

 

How about 15 though? Minnesota is making it work.

[Scott7975]

22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

like who?

 

Also, where in 2021 stats do you see evidence of Hine's explosiveness?

 

I dont look at stats for that? I actually watch football.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I dont look at stats for that? I actually watch football.

 

Watched lots of Colts games last year, huh?

[freddyjj]

12 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

So here it is from Hines himself

 

Hockenson is running similar offense in MIN as DET.  In Miami Jeff Wilson is in same offense with his old OC.  

 

Hines is being asked to learn 2 positions on Offense and play STs too.  Lots to learn.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

They said during the broadcast that when Hockensen was traded to Minnesota, they put him right in whether he knew the plays or not. They would tell him in the huddle “run to the 30 and turn right”. It’s worked.

 

 

Yes. In some systems it can work.

 

In others it doesn't. 

 

The system we run requires memorization. Every route must be memorized.

 

Again, if the main idea of an offense were whether or not it could be quickly learned, this would be really bad. But that is not the idea behind any offense. Some offenses fit it more easily than others. But the main idea is to be effective ... not to be easily used by a guy who arrived in mid-season.

 

8 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

So here it is from Hines himself

 

Hockenson is running similar offense in MIN as DET.  In Miami Jeff Wilson is in same offense with his old OC.  

 

Hines is being asked to learn 2 positions on Offense and play STs too.  Lots to learn.

 

 

Thanks. 

 

This.

 

"With that, it takes time," said Hines. And he's also working on kick returns, often as a blocker, something he's never done. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

So here it is from Hines himself

 

Hockenson is running similar offense in MIN as DET.  In Miami Jeff Wilson is in same offense with his old OC.  

 

Hines is being asked to learn 2 positions on Offense and play STs too.  Lots to learn.

 

 

you can't/don't need to teach explosive...

[BuffaloMatt]

Is it a Hole or a Gap? Everyone wants to know.

Edited November 17, 2022 by BuffaloMatt

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Yes. In some systems it can work.

 

In others it doesn't. 

 

The system we run requires memorization. Every route must be memorized.

 

There isn’t an offense in the NFL that doesn’t require route memorization, whether via fixed routes or choice routes. The idea that we run a much more sophisticated offense than Minnesota is ridiculous. 

 

On top of that, our RB’s route tree is not overly complex. They’re not running post patterns or deep seems. They’re not WR’s.

 

They’re running swings, angles, wheels and flats. The easiest routes in football.

 

Regardless, the point is that they don’t need to know the entire offense to contribute in a minor role (15 plays per game or so).

[HoofHearted]

31 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I know we got into it before and sinceraly I appologize for that.  The medication that I take sometimes makes me not myself so I am sorry about that.  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on our offense. To me it seems like defenses have figured out our concepts as a lot of plays I have been able to look at our guys have pretty sticky coverage.  It also doesnt seem that Dorsey likes to use TE's or pass catching backs very much even though it was a focal point of the off season.  Is this because he isnt using them or more so because our O line is so bad they use them to block more often than they should need to be?  2 of our fastest guys are sitting on the bench.  Is our O really that complex?

We're getting guys open - wide open at times. I think it's more so growing pains than anything else at this point. We're relying on some younger guys to produce for us offensively and we're incorporating some new concepts here and there as well which I think has some of our guys thinking at times. I think Josh did a really good job early on of taking what the defense gave him and he's gotten more and more away from that as the season has progressed, and I think when the offense is sputtering he tries to make something big happen to get it going again rather than just take the easy completions at times. I also don't think he trusts his OL to hold up in pass protection. He's rarely stepping back up into the pocket these past however many weeks which is forcing scramble drill situations. We're also seeing a lot more two man than I can remember us seeing in the past which has played into some of this as well.

 

I don't think Dorsey doesn't want to incorporate tight ends or backs, but he is using them to chip quite a bit which ultimately just makes those guys safety valves to the flats or the hook depending on the protection. There has been a very clear desire to try and incorporate backs in the redzone by singling them up with a linebacker, but with all the zone coverage we're seeing down there they aren't getting the matchups they want.

 

Every NFL offense is complex. There's multiple protections, multiple blocking schemes each with their own set of rules for different fronts that you could potentially see, and then all the choice routes that are incorporated into this offenses passing schemes. The EP system gets complex with verbiage because everything isn't spelled out for everyone. Concepts are given names so you have to understand what your responsibility is in that concept whereas in other system they call tells each individual player what their responsibility is on the play. Additionally these concepts carry over through formations - so for example you could have the same concept run out of a 3x1 set or a 2x2 set. So if we take a simple flood concept and run it out of 3x1 the #1 has a Go, #2 has an out, and #3 has an arrow. Call the same concept out of 2x2 and #1 & #2 has the same concept, but now the RB has the arrow. So it's a lot of understanding your alignment within formations as well.

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

There isn’t an offense in the NFL that doesn’t require route memorization, whether via fixed routes or choice routes. The idea that we run a much more sophisticated offense than Minnesota is ridiculous. 

 

On top of that, our RB’s route tree is not overly complex. They’re not running post patterns or deep seems. They’re not WR’s.

 

They’re running swings, angles, wheels and flats. The easiest routes in football.

 

Regardless, the point is that they don’t need to know the entire offense to contribute in a minor role (15 plays per game or so).

 

 

Yes, I know that there isn't an offense in the NFL that doesn't require route memorization.

 

But what you don't seem to get is that some require much more than others. It's not the same offense for all 32 teams, dude, it really isn't.

 

Ours requires an awful lot more than others. Look it up. 

 

If you want to ignore this, that's your business, I'm not going to continue to tell you how wrong you are on this. Just look up Erhard Perkins. You will find the word memorization featured prominently. How the routes fit together is crucial. You're not just running your own route, it's how yours fits in with the spacing of the others as well.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Einstein]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

you can't/don't need to teach explosive...

 

This.

 

We don’t even need precision routes from Hines. We just need to get the ball into his hands any way possible and let him make people miss.

 

Josh in the huddle: “Run to the flat, if they’re playing man i’m hitting you. Make someone miss.”

 

This wouldn’t work for 60 plays per game. We all know that. The point is it would work for 10-15 plays per game. That means he is on the field for only 15% or so of the snaps.

[DapperCam]

It seems like our offense has a lot of option routes, where the receiver makes a certain cut based on what the defense is showing. 2 of Allen’s picks recently have been him and Gabe Davis not being on the same page.

I’m also reminded of the McKenzie fumble where Allen flipped it to him and he wasn’t looking. McKenzie said that the play was supposed to be a screen the other way and he was just a decoy, but seems like Allen thought he was a second option on the play.

 

At any rate, there are a bunch of times people don’t seem to be on the same page this year. I didn’t see that hardly at all with Daboll.

[Scott7975]

18 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

So here it is from Hines himself

 

Hockenson is running similar offense in MIN as DET.  In Miami Jeff Wilson is in same offense with his old OC.  

 

Hines is being asked to learn 2 positions on Offense and play STs too.  Lots to learn.

 

Thanks for posting this.  Good to see a little insight of where he is at.  I never expected him to learn like the entire offense by now.  Thats unreasonable.  I guess that I just expect that they could work in a package for him and get him some touches by now.  

 

Its more of a thing that they made pass catching back a thing since the off season and they have two guys now that they barely use.  One of them is a rookie but he's been here since the draft.

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

We're getting guys open - wide open at times. I think it's more so growing pains than anything else at this point. We're relying on some younger guys to produce for us offensively and we're incorporating some new concepts here and there as well which I think has some of our guys thinking at times. I think Josh did a really good job early on of taking what the defense gave him and he's gotten more and more away from that as the season has progressed, and I think when the offense is sputtering he tries to make something big happen to get it going again rather than just take the easy completions at times. I also don't think he trusts his OL to hold up in pass protection. He's rarely stepping back up into the pocket these past however many weeks which is forcing scramble drill situations. We're also seeing a lot more two man than I can remember us seeing in the past which has played into some of this as well.

 

I don't think Dorsey doesn't want to incorporate tight ends or backs, but he is using them to chip quite a bit which ultimately just makes those guys safety valves to the flats or the hook depending on the protection. There has been a very clear desire to try and incorporate backs in the redzone by singling them up with a linebacker, but with all the zone coverage we're seeing down there they aren't getting the matchups they want.

 

Every NFL offense is complex. There's multiple protections, multiple blocking schemes each with their own set of rules for different fronts that you could potentially see, and then all the choice routes that are incorporated into this offenses passing schemes. The EP system gets complex with verbiage because everything isn't spelled out for everyone. Concepts are given names so you have to understand what your responsibility is in that concept whereas in other system they call tells each individual player what their responsibility is on the play. Additionally these concepts carry over through formations - so for example you could have the same concept run out of a 3x1 set or a 2x2 set. So if we take a simple flood concept and run it out of 3x1 the #1 has a Go, #2 has an out, and #3 has an arrow. Call the same concept out of 2x2 and #1 & #2 has the same concept, but now the RB has the arrow. So it's a lot of understanding your alignment within formations as well.

 

Thank you.  I appreciate your insight here.  One of these days I need to get all 22 for myself.  Right now I just rely on the few plays other people put out there to watch. In a lot of them I see sticky coverage.  Someday Ill get it for myself.

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

This.

 

We don’t even need precision routes from Hines. We just need to get the ball into his hands any way possible and let him make people miss.

 

Josh in the huddle: “Run to the flat, if they’re playing man i’m hitting you. Make someone miss.”

 

This wouldn’t work for 60 plays per game. We all know that. The point is it would work for 10-15 plays per game. That means he is on the field for only 15% or so of the snaps.

 

This guy only had 96 touches all season last year.  Maybe you guys are imagining some other Hines?

[Scott7975]

9 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

There isn’t an offense in the NFL that doesn’t require route memorization, whether via fixed routes or choice routes. The idea that we run a much more sophisticated offense than Minnesota is ridiculous. 

 

On top of that, our RB’s route tree is not overly complex. They’re not running post patterns or deep seems. They’re not WR’s.

 

They’re running swings, angles, wheels and flats. The easiest routes in football.

 

Regardless, the point is that they don’t need to know the entire offense to contribute in a minor role (15 plays per game or so).

 

Agree with you but I would say that he is also learning probably the slot role as he is capable of that too which is why I was excited to get him in the first place.  He isnt just a back.

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This guy only had 96 touches all season last year.  Maybe you guys are imagining some other Hines?

 

Nope, right Hines. he was stuck behind the best running back in the league last year

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

Nope, right Hines. he was stuck behind the best running back in the league last year

 

for obvious reasons.  but when he got his chance, he wasn't special

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This guy only had 96 touches all season last year.  Maybe you guys are imagining some other Hines?

 

What does that have to do with anything?  Beasley had 82 touches last season and the year before.  Gabe Davis had 35.  Your post is meaningless.

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

for obvious reasons.  but when he got his chance, he wasn't special

 

He kinda was. He was a fan favorite and was touted as having a breakout year this year due to how he played last year.

 

He averaged 5 yards per carry rushing and 8 yards per receptions. That would be tops on our team.