Seriously, how complicated is our offense

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

With the lack of threats at WR behind Diggs, it made sense that Knox would be used more. It's puzzling. Getting an explosive player like Hines involved shouldn't be a big ask, either. I think the Bills need these guys to step up now and Dorsey has to get creative in using them.

 

The Davis dissing continues!

 

Where was Hines "explosive"?

[hemma]

I guess Dorsey keeps coming up with game plans (plays) where the newer players are left ‘in the margins’.

Probably gets Beane a little cranky.

[LeGOATski]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Davis dissing continues!

 

Where was Hines "explosive"?

I've loved Davis, honestly. Let's say it's Diggs and him. Knox is still clearly the next best option, but has gotten limited opportunities.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

With the lack of threats at WR behind Diggs, it made sense that Knox would be used more. It's puzzling. Getting an explosive player like Hines involved shouldn't be a big ask, either. I think the Bills need these guys to step up now and Dorsey has to get creative in using them.

 

On Knox I am absolutely convinced that McDermott and Beane are banging the drum on this point to Dorsey. We have seen them try and design plays for him early in games but then get away from it as the game goes on. I think it is a play calling issue on him specifically. He has had 10 targets in first Quarters this season. Before the two passes on the drive into FG range against the Vikings he was at 10 for the 3rd and 4th Qrtr combined on the season. 

 

It feels to me like every week they are saying "Ken you've got to get Dawson the ball more..." and he goes off and puts two plays for Knox in his scripted first 15 and then forgets all about it. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Don’t forget Toney with KC—by game #2 he’s putting up WR2 numbers coming from the Giants. 🙈

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Hines probably saw tape of our run blocking and the fact that we get zero push and said just keep using Singletary.

[DallasBillsFan1]

The full power of the Buffalo death star has not been fully realized yet.  When all the dots are connected, we will be invincible.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

On Knox I am absolutely convinced that McDermott and Beane are banging the drum on this point to Dorsey. We have seen them try and design plays for him early in games but then get away from it as the game goes on. I think it is a play calling issue on him specifically. He has had 10 targets in first Quarters this season. Before the two passes on the drive into FG range against the Vikings he was at 10 for the 3rd and 4th Qrtr combined on the season. 

 

It feels to me like every week they are saying "Ken you've got to get Dawson the ball more..." and he goes off and puts two plays for Knox in his scripted first 15 and then forgets all about it. 

 

Yep - then he be comes dawson blocks. 

47 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Don’t forget Toney with KC—by game #2 he’s putting up WR2 numbers coming from the Giants. 🙈

 

Yeah, JuJu going out sort of forced their hand and Toney looked fine.  

[Santana]

Honestly it doesn't matter how long it takes RB's to get acquainted in this offense because the Bills don't know how to use them regardless. We've been watching this for like 3 or 4yrs now. 

[Tommy Callahan]

Like madden when somebody jumps out on you running the same plays, then you adapt and they are shot cause they cannot adapt and only have like 4 plays they know how to run.

 

 

[Buffalo Junction]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

True there does seem to be miscomunications here and there but when I hear Peterson say that he knew what play we were running and where Josh was going to go with the ball just based off our formation... it leads me to believe our O is not that complex.  The dude spent less than a week watching Bills film and can say that.

I have the sneaking suspicion that the offense is simultaneously too simple and too complex. It’s as though the play design, pre-snap structure & motion is too simple, which makes everything post snap (reads, option routes, etc) more complex. Couple that with the lack of a dominant run game and teams are able to sit on routes and in zones waiting for Allen to make mistakes. We also have the issue of Knox and the RBs chipping frequently which keeps them from going into motion and/ getting into their routes early.
 

If the RB runs a wheel route or motions outside on that OT INT then Peterson is forced to stay in his zone. Instead it’s a chip and release, Peterson can roam, Allen has to hold the ball, and Davis has to make a choice of whether or not to flatten his route… All the complexity happens post snap because the defense didn’t have to think pre-snap. 

[msw2112]

I think that folks are overreacting to our use or non-use of Hines.  We did not trade a boatload of high round picks for the guy.  We traded a seldom-used backup RB and a late-to-mid round draft pick.  Hines was not a starter in Indy and he's not a starter in Buffalo.  He's a puzzle piece and a weapon that they will use here and there.  He's been used in the return game quite a bit and he's gotten a few snaps on offense.

 

The Bills did not have trouble moving the ball or scoring points on Sunday.  The issue was mistakes and turnovers killing drives.  Giving Hines more snaps probably wouldn't have changed this.

 

The fact that we don't use ANY of our RBs that much is really the issue, not how much or little we use Hines.

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

 

 

The purpose of an offense or part of an offense is not to be easy for a new guy to pick up.

 

It's to work well.

 

As we're the #1 offense and the #2 scoring offense, ours does. 

 

If it's easy, that's great. But not necessary. Because other teams do something does not mean that we need to do it.

 

The Erhardt Perkins system for catching passes is what we were running last I knew. And it is indeed complex. "It was developed to maximize efficiency in cold weather."

 

https://baltimoresportsandlife.com/erhardt-perkins-system-part-2/

 

Gee, I wonder why we use it.

 

Don't know offhand whether Hines has used it before.

 

But you don't bring in a guy because you want him to be useful his first two weeks. You want him useful long term. If he can do it his first two weeks, that's a nice bonus. But simply not important in the long run.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

10 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Is our offense that complicated that a 5 year vet cant get some plays?  This is one thing I dont like about our coaches.  They dont trust anyone to play football and have to coddle everyone.

 

 

Teams around the league had players make plays after only being on the team for like 4 days.  Not our team though.  Our team needs rookies to get close to the end of their rookie contract before they see the field unless out of necessity.  Our team wont have Hines ready until next year.  

Not that your point is wrong…but someone like Jeff Wilson moved to an extremely similar system in Miami which makes the whole process much easier.  

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

32 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The purpose of an offense or part of an offense is not to be easy for a new guy to pick up.

 

It's to work well.

 

As we're the #1 offense and the #2 scoring offense, ours does. 

 

If it's easy, that's great. But not necessary. Because other teams do something does not mean that we need to do it.

 

The Erhardt Perkins system for catching passes is what we were running last I knew. And it is indeed complex. "It was developed to maximize efficiency in cold weather."

 

https://baltimoresportsandlife.com/erhardt-perkins-system-part-2/

 

Gee, I wonder why we use it.

 

Don't know offhand whether Hines has used it before.

 

But you don't bring in a guy because you want him to be useful his first two weeks. You want him useful long term. If he can do it his first two weeks, that's a nice bonus. But simply not important in the long run.

This is correct.  Bills use EP system.  Hines comes from Reich's system which is a flavor of the West coast offense.

 

So terminology on even things like how to call a play are completely different.

 

When Josh calls a play, it is like Japanese to Hines so it takes time to understand the new verbiage and the play that Josh is calling.

 

If Hines went to another WC system, he could probably pick it up right away.

[Einstein]

They said during the broadcast that when Hockensen was traded to Minnesota, they put him right in whether he knew the plays or not. They would tell him in the huddle “run to the 30 and turn right”. It’s worked.

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Davis dissing continues!

 

Where was Hines "explosive"?

 

Davis is decent but we need better.  Im not really dissing him but he's not a top receiver.  Hines is very fast and because of that can and has been explosive with the ball.

3 hours ago, DallasBillsFan1 said:

The full power of the Buffalo death star has not been fully realized yet.  When all the dots are connected, we will be invincible.

 

I sure hope so

Edited November 17, 2022 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I have the sneaking suspicion that the offense is simultaneously too simple and too complex. It’s as though the play design, pre-snap structure & motion is too simple, which makes everything post snap (reads, option routes, etc) more complex. Couple that with the lack of a dominant run game and teams are able to sit on routes and in zones waiting for Allen to make mistakes. We also have the issue of Knox and the RBs chipping frequently which keeps them from going into motion and/ getting into their routes early.
 

If the RB runs a wheel route or motions outside on that OT INT then Peterson is forced to stay in his zone. Instead it’s a chip and release, Peterson can roam, Allen has to hold the ball, and Davis has to make a choice of whether or not to flatten his route… All the complexity happens post snap because the defense didn’t have to think pre-snap. 

 

Yes probably.  I think our formations and play calls are simple.  The complexity part comes post snap where the receivers route changes based on coverage and the QB and receiver both have to read the same thing to know which way the route is run.  I think this is part of where our O might be struggling and this is just my imagination here but Im guessing that defenses know this too and have figured out all our route concepts.  They technically can dictate which route the receiver runs by their own position so they know exactly what a receiver is going to do... making it easier to defend.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

If the RB runs a wheel route or motions outside on that OT INT then Peterson is forced to stay in his zone. Instead it’s a chip and release, Peterson can roam, Allen has to hold the ball, and Davis has to make a choice of whether or not to flatten his route… All the complexity happens post snap because the defense didn’t have to think pre-snap. 

This isn't true. Quarters rules have the LB play the wheel of #3. Peterson would have been in the exact same spot regardless of what Singletary did.

16 minutes ago, Einstein said:

They said during the broadcast that when Hockensen was traded to Minnesota, they put him right in whether he knew the plays or not. They would tell him in the huddle “run to the 30 and turn right”. It’s worked.

That's all well and good, but limits you as a play caller. All the choice concepts we have would have to be thrown out the window for instance. RB is a tough spot if they aren't familiar with the offense. You have to learn run schemes and your keys in those, the pass schemes and the option routes incorporated with those, as well as all the protections on top of all the new verbiage. It's a lot of information that has to be known and digested so that these guys can make decisions in a split second.

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This isn't true. Quarters rules have the LB play the wheel of #3. Peterson would have been in the exact same spot regardless of what Singletary did.

 

I know we got into it before and sinceraly I appologize for that.  The medication that I take sometimes makes me not myself so I am sorry about that.  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on our offense. To me it seems like defenses have figured out our concepts as a lot of plays I have been able to look at our guys have pretty sticky coverage.  It also doesnt seem that Dorsey likes to use TE's or pass catching backs very much even though it was a focal point of the off season.  Is this because he isnt using them or more so because our O line is so bad they use them to block more often than they should need to be?  2 of our fastest guys are sitting on the bench.  Is our O really that complex?

Edited November 17, 2022 by Scott7975