The 4th & 2 playcalling

[Turbo44]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

And a proper HC would have chosen to go up by 13 points instead of letting the OC have the chance to f*ck it up.

 

 

incorrect

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

And a proper HC would have chosen to go up by 13 points instead of letting the OC have the chance to f*ck it up.

 

 

incorrect

[BADOLBILZ]

22 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Don’t disagree, but you and I both know that Allen ain’t throwing a swing pass to Duke Freaking Johnson on a 4th down play form the five. Christ, he’s not even in Allen’s range of vision given the way he set up. That’s not a good thing, but it is also true.

 

 

Yes..........in the same way that you and I both knew that they were going to lose that game if they don't score a TD on that drive to stop the avalanche of momentum the Vikings had.      So.......more "probably" than "certainly".   Freaking Duke Johnson isn't a bum.......he's been one of the best receiving backs in the NFL over the last half decade.  

 

The inability to take what's being given is a problem and Allen needs to get past "ain't no freaking way" he is  throwing passes to wide open receivers in front of the coverage.    

 

We can go on forever about the reasons why Allen has lost any semblance of short game but it isn't because he doesn't have receiving options out of the backfield anymore.    Hines and Johnson are much better RB receiving options than Lil' Dummy McKenzie is as an excuse for a slot receiver.     The funniest moment of the game was Lil' Dummy trying to cut back his run to the middle of the field with time running out in regulation and the crowd with collective "gasp and NOOOO!" before he thought better of it and went out of bounds.   

Edited November 14, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[HappyDays]

23 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Expected him to keep running? Huh? He threw it behind him.

 

Yeah because then he tried to throw it to where Davis stopped, and at the same time Davis started hopping to the right. You can see it perfectly here at 1:00:

 

We're running an offense that requires the QB and the WRs to be on the same page at all times, the same one the Patriots ran under Brady. Throughout their dynasty it was well known that only a few WRs were capable of fitting into the system. Edelman was great in that system not because of elite abilities but because he was always on the same page with Brady. We are NOT seeing that from this offense. Davis doesn't strike me as a cerebral WR, and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. Ideally we would be sending him on simple vertical routes where he can show off his ability to climb the ladder like he did at UCF. We're instead asking him to read coverages and adjust route angles on the fly. Everyone is thinking too much from the QB all the way down and it's putting us in bad situations.

[Gugny]

3 minutes ago, Turbo44 said:

incorrect

incorrect

 

That's not how opinions work.

That's not how opinions work.

 

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yes..........in the same way that you and I both knew that they were going to lose that game if they don't score a TD on that drive to stop the avalanche of momentum the Vikings had.      So.......more "probably" than "certainly".   Freaking Duke Johnson isn't a bum.......he's been one of the best receiving backs in the NFL over the last half decade.  

 

The inability to take what's being given is a problem and Allen needs to get past "ain't no freaking way" he is  throwing passes to wide open receivers in front of the coverage.    

 

We can go on forever about the reasons why Allen has lost any semblance of short game but it isn't because he doesn't have receiving options out of the backfield anymore.    Hines and Johnson are much better RB receiving options than Lil' Dummy McKenzie is as an excuse for a slot receiver.     The funniest moment of the game was Lil' Dummy trying to cut back his run to the middle of the field with time running out in regulation and the crowd with collective "gasp and NOOOO!" before he thought better of it and went out of bounds.   

He’s not a bum, no, but he has been targeted precisely zero times in his short career with the Bills, and my point it is that it wasn’t going to start with 4th down play meant to ice the game. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have thrown it to him, of course!

[2003Contenders]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

That was Duke Johnson and he had a defender on him and closing fast. It would have probably been a bang-bang play at the first down marker, or Duke would have had to make him miss.

 

He may have even been hit so hard that he doesn’t catch the ball.

 

Exactly right. I honestly believe the screen to Duke was the initial design, but Josh saw that the defense had sniffed it out and instead headed to his right. The Vikings were all over the screen the whole game.

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Context matters though.

 

I am usually pro-go-for-it.

 

But in the context of the situation, where you have a QB struggling, and you have a chance to go up 2 touchdowns, I think you take the field goal considering the context of this particular situation.

 

But up until that point in the game, Josh had NOT been struggling. In fact, he had been in a rhythm on that very drive.

[HappyDays]

22 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I agree with everything you're saying, but I feel like this problem (Josh and receivers not on same page) was not a problem until the 2nd half of the Green Bay game and it's continued since then.

 

I feel like he was in sync with all receiving options earlier in the season.

 

I think it's the usual, DCs have tape on Dorsey's offense now and they're calling plays to take away what we like to do. Patrick Peterson knew exactly what we were going to do on the last play of OT. He easily undercut Davis because of the angle Davis took and that was all she wrote. And personally I don't think the solution is just Allen checking the ball down more. We can check the ball all the way down to the 10, but does that matter if we can't punch it in? Allen wanted to win the game so he went for the TD throw twice. The first one was dropped, the second one the undercut by a smart DB in part because Davis took a bad angle.

 

I mean let's pretend Allen takes the check down and we end up in 1st and goal from the 10. Does anyone here have confidence in us getting a TD? So let's say we get the FG. Does anyone here have confidence in the defense stopping the Vikings in a 2 minute drill with timeouts from driving down the field for at the very least a FG attempt for the win? I think Allen checking the ball down on that play is a lazy solution with the same ultimate result. The difficult solution is Dorsey finding ways to create easy yards and reads, and creating some kind of identity in the RZ. I don't ever want Allen deciding not to throw an anticipatory throw downfield when his read tells him that's the right throw.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by HappyDays

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Success said:

I hate to belabor this one - but it was genuinely concerning.

 

We can set aside the decision to go for it for now, which I disagreed with.  But it wasn't THAT crazy, given the talent on our offense.

 

The sequence there from 2nd down on was as unimaginative as anything I've seen.  It was almost like we'd call it in a pick-up game.  Everybody go out, and try to get open!  Am I missing anything there?  Was there anything set up on any of those 3 downs that was more than Allen dropping back and surveying the field?

 

Great teams always seem to have some play in their back pocket - a "gotta have" play, when you have short yardage & a chance to put the game away.  Do we not have that?

 

 

 

I am actually tempted to blame the sequence of events on the 3rd down and failed 4th down conversion for the game unraveling. It was the turning point. I disliked the throw on 4th, was against the call/wanted points, but absolutely hated the fact that we didn't run the ball on 3rd down if we were going to go for it on 4th. 

Not a single receiver on that 3rd down played the sticks. It was all out TD. I have been critical of Allen for having guys open and choosing to take a shot at a homerun. This was not one of those times. Unsure if this one was on Dorsey or McKenzie. It looks like McKenzie could have (should have?) run his route shallow. There was nobody there, but McK cut it up field to the end zone instead of across. he basically made his cut right in front of the defender. Had he gone shallow it was a clear first down. Allen went to McKenzie who was in a decent position but not ideal, so I am tempted to say play design was good, execution was bad. 

On 4th it looks like Gabe runs 3 yards and curls back to Allen and waits for a split second. A quick ball and it is a first. No YAC but a first for sure. After he curls, he cuts across the face of the LB towards Diggs to his right who is doing the same, but instead of curling Diggs just cuts across the face of the LB. Both LB's pass of their WR in zone. Allen hesitates again with the throw to Diggs and misses the opportunity. I have to assume that with both Diggs and Davis being covered by LB's and running routes a yard past the sticks, this is the play design. Allen had a narrow window, but I think it was within the initial design of the play. It doesn't get any better than both WR1 and 2 having a chance to make a play in front of the sticks. We've seen this offense execute these type of plays before.

 

Worth noting a quick dump off to Duke is also likely a first. Duke is outside or at the numbers on the 10, turned up field and looking back at Josh while the nearest defender is at the 2. Allen never looks his way. Duke is at the LOS and Josh never looked to his left once. The DB didn't move from the 2 yard line.We didn't need a TD. We needed to get to the 5. A throw there and all Duke needs to do is get 6 feet. 

 

That throw to the endzone never had a chance. It was never going to work. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

38 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah because then he tried to throw it to where Davis stopped, and at the same time Davis started hopping to the right. You can see it perfectly here at 1:00:

 

We're running an offense that requires the QB and the WRs to be on the same page at all times, the same one the Patriots ran under Brady. Throughout their dynasty it was well known that only a few WRs were capable of fitting into the system. Edelman was great in that system not because of elite abilities but because he was always on the same page with Brady. We are NOT seeing that from this offense. Davis doesn't strike me as a cerebral WR, and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. Ideally we would be sending him on simple vertical routes where he can show off his ability to climb the ladder like he did at UCF. We're instead asking him to read coverages and adjust route angles on the fly. Everyone is thinking too much from the QB all the way down and it's putting us in bad situations.

Gabe and McKenzie are in the same place, that can’t be right. Gabe was a actually wide open 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Wayne Cubed said:

There is no 4th down if Josh hits a wide open Davis on 3rd down... and I do mean wide open, instead he hesitates.

 

 

He has Davis and McKenzie. He is staring right at them and still didn't throw the ball. I went and renewed my All 22 after the Jets game. It has been a lot of this. I honestly don't know WTF is going on with him, but our offensive execution just seems to be this play over and over and over again. 

 

I am frustrated upset. But also so confused. How can a player so good go back to such an early version of himself. There is something going on. Maybe he is all rattled from the GB hit? Maybe he is pressing too much with the pressure to be great? I have one itch that keeps bringing me back to the fact that he said he didn't do anything this offseason.  Josh is a guy who made so many improvements so quick, there is a scenario where those corrections are not yet permanent and without constant reinforcement there is risk of taking steps backwards. 

[ChrisWatson#21]

2 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Why isn’t when we run routes inside the 20 everyone streaks for the endzone? It’s ok to have a checkdown and let the backs earn their money 

If it were Herbert we would have converted.  All that guy does is throw flats😄

[die hard bills fan]

Where is the creative play calling in the red zone.  Don't want any stupid play calls but it seems like when Daboll  was here there was more schemed creative plays -throws to wide open linemen, throw to Josh one time, more motion or even just designed run for Josh.  Still don't know why they didn't try to run Josh for those 2 yards. 

[78thealltimegreat]

8 minutes ago, ChrisWatson#21 said:

If it were Herbert we would have converted.  All that guy does is throw flats😄

Yeh watching the 49ers game last night you are correct it’s like half their passing game 

[fan_in_tx]

 

Talk about play calling why not audible to an inside run/trap play .. this would have gone for 20 yards  

[Tanoros]

1 hour ago, Turbo44 said:

Easy to say run, looking back.  Note than on 2nd and 1, a play earlier, singletary was stuffed for no gain, so that may have dissuaded the run option

Agree, Allen had Davis wide open on the 3rd down play. No one questions the play calling if we get a TD there. Sure running could have worked, but we called a play that should have been a TD if not for the execution of the players. 

[Wayne Cubed]

Just now, fan_in_tx said:

 

Talk about play calling why not audible to an inside run/trap play .. this would have gone for 20 yards  

 

To be honest, the Vikings actually showed a lot of light boxes in the 2nd half. They were daring Dorsey to call a run... and he did on a play with a light box and this was the result...

 

[DrDawkinstein]

Forget 4th and 2, we need to be talking about "2nd and 2".

 

THREE DRIVES IN A ROW to start the second half, the Bills got to 2nd and 2... and STALLED. Couldnt pick up 6 feet, on 2-3 tries.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

The angle is messing with your eyes. Look at the yard markers. Duke was 4 yards from the 1st down marker. Defender was 3 yards. Defender was closer to the first down marker than Duke was. It would have been very very close. 

 

As I said........the angle isn't messing with my eyes.........I saw it right at the snap in real life and not again since.    I watch the defense as if I was the QB at the snap so I have a better understanding and Johnson was left WIDE OPEN by NFL standards.   Using stills to illustrate doesn't always work.   And "Freaking Duke Johnson" is a career 9.2 yard per reception running back.   That is a crazy high number for a RB with that amount of catches.   He's been borderline "great" at this stuff.   The odds of someone shoe string tackling him for no gain are very, very low.

[Simon]

31 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

To be honest, the Vikings actually showed a lot of light boxes in the 2nd half. They were daring Dorsey to call a run... and he did on a play with a light box and this was the result...

 

 

Wtaf is Saffold doing?

[BADOLBILZ]

30 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

To be honest, the Vikings actually showed a lot of light boxes in the 2nd half. They were daring Dorsey to call a run... and he did on a play with a light box and this was the result...

 

 

 

Yeah you have to be able to run against that box if you are playing downhill.    This RPO style with the RB parallel with the QB and OL not being allowed to get upfield is not ideal for taking advantage of a light box.   Call a run or pass........get in the "I" and execute.........let the OL either block for the run or the pass.........not in-between.