A Few Thoughts about the Vikings game, in no particular order

[The Frankish Reich]

24 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

True, but everyone knew what was coming with Josh under center.

Everyone knew that was coming with Cousins the play before. And the realistic worst case scenario happened to him: no gain, turned over on downs. Fumbling the snap is kind of a 1 in 1000 outcome. It’s Piscataway Joe Pisarcik for us seasoned fans. The Mark Sanche Butt Fumble for those of a more recent vintage. In other words: so unexpected, so ridiculous, that it needs a nickname. 

[LabattBlue]

OT never happens(including the interception), if a SIMPLE exchange between the QB and center occurs.  It is a friggin’ joke and not sure if the blame is on Morse or Allen, but if this happens without problem, the game was over.  

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

1 - Josh - For all the mystery surrounding his elbow, you never would have thought for a moment he was injured in this game.  Allen was making all the throws with ease.  Josh made some amazing throws and even more amazing runs.  On the first red zone interception, I can't fault him for trying to make a play.  It was 4th down, so they Vikings would get the ball unless it was a touchdown.  The fumble, I still don't know who it was on, but it looked like a good snap from the replay I saw, albeit a tough replay to see.  The last interception is really my only concern with Josh in this game.  We had taken all the momentum back, were moving down the field at ease, and Josh throws it right into a defenders chest, same as he has the past few weeks.  What worries me the most is that I couldn't see anyone he was trying to throw to.  This wasn't a matter of receiving running the wrong route or an anticipation throw, he just made a terrible throw.  We are going to be in more games like this, that come down to the last drive, and Josh needs to be better here.  The fact that this was the only throw I questioned makes me a feel a little better about his decision making from the past 2 games, but still a concern.

 

Thanks for the writeup, Virgil.  Always good to hear your thoughts.

 

Goes beyond the INT, but on the 4th and 2, I would have liked to see the Bills take the points there.  We also started out with 2nd and 2, and threw 3 consecutive pass plays.  I don't know whether there were options or checks, but with 2nd and 2, why not try at least one run?  But, the problem wasn't just the interception, it's that it was returned 39 yds.   In theory, a punt is more controlled coverage for the Bills than an EZ interception.

 

FWIW on the fumble, Josh took the blame but McDermott talked about the interior OL.  I just wonder about that play call, again.  Why not call a play where Josh has receiver options and let him take the snap from shotgun and throw it if there's a safe throw, or throw it away?  Is there a rule I don't know about where if the ball is thrown away it risks being a safety?  I guess if it's ruled intentional grounding, but a good play design should avoid that, if it goes OOB in the vicinity of a receiver.  Still, a safety is better than a TD.  I know the Giants intentionally took a safety in a similar situation earlier this year.

 

I believe on the last interception, Josh was throwing to Gabe Davis crossing the middle, and Peterson jumped the route.  I believe Josh had more than one option there, including Singletary short.  It was 2nd and 10 from the 20 with more than a minute left.  Let Singletary get some yards, get a first down, and keep looking for a break in coverage.  This was similar IIRC to the EZ INT vs the Packers. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Beck Water

[akcash]

 

Thank you Virgil for this post.

 

I didn't see the game live myself... was gonna start a thread but if you don't mind I'll share my first impression and and with a story:

 

Just coming back from NYC today... yesterday I had to turn off the game when it was 24-10 at half.

 

Was being a good sport, went to a play with aunt.

 

Come out at intermission. To see one play on my phone. The fumble. 

 

Intermission ends, go back into play.

 

Was going to try not to look at my phone until watched game later. 

 

Looked at phone. Phone shows notification from NFL... "👀 Bills-Vikings 30-30." 

 

At restaurant eating, said 33-30 Vikings.

 

Just rewatched game. I feel a lot better. Once again we outplayed them. 

 

They broke a long run, sucks but not why we lost. 

 

Key penalty, Jefferson and Cousins made some heroic plays against out patchwork secondary whose been overachieving all year and most of the day did what they were asked to do.

 

Freak fumble. 

 

Amazing late heroic play by defense. 

 

One bad decision by Allen who was trying to go for the win instead of the tie. 

 

Keep playing Bills. 

 

This will not keep up.

[Westside Madness]

Wasn't sure where to post it, but one thing I noticed was that Isiah McKenzie almost lost the game on his own...again. In the Miami game, he caught a short pass and had two options, run to the sideline and get out of bounds to stop the clock or run north/south, get down so we could run up and spike it. He couldn't decide, got tackled inbounds after wasting like 5 additional seconds.

 

Yesterday, he had the ball with 6 seconds left and almost did the exact same thing! Thankfully, he managed to get out of bounds, but what is it with this kid?

[Vertig0]

15 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

OT never happens(including the interception), if a SIMPLE exchange between the QB and center occurs.  It is a friggin’ joke and not sure if the blame is on Morse or Allen, but if this happens without problem, the game was over.  

 

Unfortunately, you're 100% correct.  While I see all of the posts about "why didn't we shotgun, etc." and I understand the hindsight of that - a QB sneak is the most basic football play that there is - especially with forward progress and 250+ lb. quarterback.  The play call was fine.  The players didn't execute it.  I'm sure adrenaline had something to do with it - but it's still inexcusable.  I'll fault Dorsey for a bunch of other things (i.e. abandon run and placing the entire onus of winning squarely on Allen who, through common observation, anyone can see hasn't been 100% right these past few weeks), but I won't fault him for the sneak call. 

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, akcash said:

 

Thank you Virgil for this post.

 

I didn't see the game live myself... was gonna start a thread but if you don't mind I'll share my first impression and and with a story:

 

Just coming back from NYC today... yesterday I had to turn off the game when it was 24-10 at half.

 

......

 

One bad decision by Allen who was trying to go for the win instead of the tie.

 

I have a similar story of leaving for a family obligation when the Bills were up 24-10 and coming back to see a stop on 4th down (safe!  We can kneel it out...) only to see a Minn TD and WTF, what happened?

 

Just a point that it was 2nd and 10 from the Minn 20 with 1:19 left when Josh threw the pick.

Josh could have taken an open option for a short gain or maybe a 1st down, and still played for the win

 

Situational awareness: he had no need to go for the "kill shot" there.

[CEN-CAL17]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

How can the playcall be worse when he has 3 viable options for successful plays? There are a lot of teams that are happy when they have ONE gimme on a play...Allen had THREE!!  They were not close enough to the endzone for a QB Power to be effective.  Those are most effective inside the 10.

Point was to get closer to the 10 yd line… not to score. There was what 2 mins left? Bills were on the 20 yd line? Yeah, get the first down, the 10 yd line. Then go for the end zone. From the 20, a QB sweep or power would have been just fine.

 

Im not thinking about scoring from the 20.

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Point was to get closer to the 10 yd line… not to score. There was what 2 mins left? Bills were on the 20 yd line? Yeah, get the first down, the 10 yd line. Then go for the end zone. From the 20, a QB sweep or power would have been just fine.

 

Im not thinking about scoring from the 20.

 

1 minute 19 not 2 minutes, but I believe the Bills still had both their OT time outs and could have handled a pass to the middle or a run/receiver not getting OOB.

 

Point is valid: the one thing Josh CAN NOT do in that situation is throw a pick. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, Vertig0 said:

100% agree on the abandonment of the run game.  Although Allen "is" a large majority of our offense, we are starting to see what it looks like when the OC puts the entire weight of winning solely on Josh's shoulders.  He reverts back to hero ball, doesn't take the underneath, and makes bad decisions.  Even an average run game allows him to take a play off, collect himself and take a breath.  Instead, he's constantly forced to be thinking - and eventually starts forcing things downfield because he wants to make a play as the game becomes solely on him.  As he slowly gets rattled he loses his short/medium field vision and starts to solely focus on Diggs or chunk plays to Davis.  Rams, Titans, etc. he took what was there and the results showed with points.  He's definitely forcing - and I believe that it's partly due to elevated weight on his shoulders only in close games when we abandon the run - and also the "Super Bowl" expectations of this team - kind of a "***** - we need points, I NEED to make something happen.  

Interesting and this sounds highly plausible.  How else can we rationally explain Allen's tremendous regression last two second have we endured.

[CEN-CAL17]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

1 minute 19 not 2 minutes, but I believe the Bills still had both their OT time outs and could have handled a pass to the middle or a run/receiver not getting OOB.

 

Point is valid: the one thing Josh CAN NOT do in that situation is throw a pick. 

1:19 is an eternity from the 20. I’m not really worried about getting OOB, more worried about getting within legit striking distance. For me that’s the 10 yd line.  
 

I just hate the play call was double posts to the goal line. Yes bad play by Josh but I hate he had that play.

[RoyBatty is alive]

10 minutes ago, Vertig0 said:

 

Unfortunately, you're 100% correct.  While I see all of the posts about "why didn't we shotgun, etc." and I understand the hindsight of that - a QB sneak is the most basic football play that there is - especially with forward progress and 250+ lb. quarterback.  The play call was fine.  The players didn't execute it.  I'm sure adrenaline had something to do with it - but it's still inexcusable.  I'll fault Dorsey for a bunch of other things (i.e. abandon run and placing the entire onus of winning squarely on Allen who, through common observation, anyone can see hasn't been 100% right these past few weeks), but I won't fault him for the sneak call. 

Allen SUCKS at QB sneaks.

 

He lost yesterday and last year at Tennesse not getting any yardage on either play.  Remember his heroic QB sneak versus Dallas on Thanksgiving, recall what he did their, he dropped that ball and got it back and wrestled for a major first down.

 

Allen is far too clumsy on his qb sneaks, he is slow and lumbers through them which allows the defense a micro-second long er to get to the ball.

 

Ne needs extensive practice on QB sneaks.

[Chas56]

1 hour ago, schoolhouserock said:

Not including lyrics ranks right up there with a fumble in your own end zone.

I miss the days of Grateful Dead. ☮️

[billsfanfrom83]

Thank you sir as always I really enjoyed reading your post.

[nedboy7]

Appreciate the good write up.  Got to stay positive.  Nothing good comes from marinading in disappointment.

Main problem in my opinion has been the play of Josh.  If he can fix things we will be back on top. 

I am not into firing the coaches or claiming the team sucks. 

[jkeerie]

Thanks, Virgil.  This was a measured objective critique of what occurred in the game.  I also don't fault Josh on that first INT, although this is the second game where those 3 points would have proved valuable down the stretch had we kicked the FG.  (We won the GB game anyway.)  

 

Your post was refreshing versus the flame-throwing we've been getting.  I appreciate your taking the time to write it.

[Turbo44]

2 hours ago, Virgil said:

Hey everyone, sorry for the hiatus these past few weeks, but taking some time off here and there was always the plan.  In all honesty, I didn't plan to write this game either, but a few  people asked and I didn't want to break my word.  However, these recaps are going to become less frequent as I continue to lean towards overall retirement.  It's not so much a the commitment to writing as I feel like there's less to say.  I'm either talking about the same positive types of performance or a let down.  Also, the few days after a loss on this board can be painful and I don't envy the mods.  With that, this might be a different style and not as in depth, but I tried to enjoy the game as much as I could.

 

1 - Josh - For all the mystery surrounding his elbow, you never would have thought for a moment he was injured in this game.  Allen was making all the throws with ease.  Josh made some amazing throws and even more amazing runs.  On the first red zone interception, I can't fault him for trying to make a play.  It was 4th down, so they Vikings would get the ball unless it was a touchdown.  The fumble, I still don't know who it was on, but it looked like a good snap from the replay I saw, albeit a tough replay to see.  The last interception is really my only concern with Josh in this game.  We had taken all the momentum back, were moving down the field at ease, and Josh throws it right into a defenders chest, same as he has the past few weeks.  What worries me the most is that I couldn't see anyone he was trying to throw to.  This wasn't a matter of receiving running the wrong route or an anticipation throw, he just made a terrible throw.  We are going to be in more games like this, that come down to the last drive, and Josh needs to be better here.  The fact that this was the only throw I questioned makes me a feel a little better about his decision making from the past 2 games, but still a concern.

 

2 - Coaching - The ONLY coaching issue I have from this game is the abandoning of the run game in the second half.  Motor was the offense for the first two drives until he fumbled.  Which, if you are going to have 3 other active running backs, then don't punish all of them for Motor's fumble (which I'm still not convinced was a fumble).   Going one dimensional in the second half is a large part of our second half scoring issue.  I don't understand why it keeps happening.  But on the goal line fumble, the going for it instead of the field goal, all of the coverages and decisions, I completely agreed with all of them in the moment.  They were the analytical right thing to do and made sense if the PLAYERS didn't keep getting beat.

 

3 - Pass Rush - If I'm not mistaken, the Vikings have one of the better offensive tackle tandems in the league.  With Groot out and Oliver possibly still not at 100%, it was going to be a rough day.  Credit to Von for getting home in the 4th, but you have to credit the Vikings offensive line in this game.  Besides the OT drive and the big run by Cook (to the outside again), the Bills defensive line did a decent job.  There were more than a handful of plays were I was surprised Cousins could even get the ball out, but he was just a split second faster with his release.

 

4 - Jefferson - Yes, the defender should have tried to knock the ball down on 4th and long.  However, Jefferson simply made some amazing plays in this game.  He's arguably the best receiver in the game right now.  His catch near the goal line was also a thing of beauty.  I can't blame coaching because players were on him both times, but couldn't make the play.  And credit to Cousins for making those throws.  Now, if Tre were back is it a different outcome, I hope so.

 

5 - Special Teams - I'm really curious to know why the Vikings kept bringing KO's out of the end zone and why they kept kicking to us short.  Did I miss something?  I don't remember seeing so many kick returns in a single game in years.  Also, why was Duke Johnson activated for this game?  Both sides played well for these units and Bass was back to being automatics.  Hines showed some nice punt return skills off the bounce as well.

 

6 - Super bowl - In the closing moments of the Jets game, you could see the Jets sidelines celebrate like they just won the Super Bowl.  In this game, I believe the Vikings played out of their minds.  There's no doubt to me that we got their 110% effort.  Even though we haven't won anything, we've been deemed the best team in the league all season and this is what the Bills need to expect each and every week.  If there's a silver lining, the Bills absolutely should have won all the games they lost.  We haven't gotten "beaten" per say.  So if there's a silver lining in this, we are preparing ourselves for the playoffs each week and will be greatly battle tested.  

 

 

Like I said, abbreviated version this week.  Hopefully you all get the point of what I'm trying to say.  Trust me, I'm pissed off too.  I'm tired of being on the losing end of these "game of the weeks."  But, we are only one game out of the one seed, get the chance to play everyone ahead of us again, minus the Chiefs, and are overall getting more healthy.  Hyde and Poyer being out is going to hurt us in these games.  Poyer might be 50/50 the rest of the way. but we have to get better there.  Hopefully, these back-ups can figure it out in time.  But come playoffs, regardless of our path, I expect us to be ready.

Go Bills

1. It's been speculated that Davis ran the wrong route on the last INT.  From similar plays we've seen in the past, Diggs and McKenzie run go patterns to the back of the end zone with Gabe cutting his pattern short across the goal line.  we'll never know as Josh won't sell out his WRs and the coaching staff won't say anything.

[Turbo44]

1 hour ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

I was yelling QB power or QB sweep at my TV!!!! Bills needed to get to the 10 yd line and take 3 shots from there. Use the damn timeouts, run the ball!!!! Bad decision and bad throw by Josh, play call was worse!!!

If you look at that picture above, it looks like Gabe was cutting it across to the endzone.  When Josh threw it, Davis for some reason cut back into the endzone allowing Peterson to undercut the route.  Unfortunately we'll never know if it was a bad throw, or a bad pattern; maybe both. 

 

Morris looks kind of open at the 5 C

 

Could have dumped it off to Singletary but, with 2 guys at the 10, he probably only makes it to the 13-14 yard line.  

 

Maybe could have tried to loft it to Diggs in the back left of the endzone, but at the time of the thrown he was covered well

 

Best thing to do was probably run it, and hopefully beat the LB in the middle to the outside.

 

of couse, this all has to be deided upon in a split second.  Josh tried to laser it into Gabe, gabe turned upfield for some reason and easy pick for Peterson

1 hour ago, Repulsif said:

He had a decent game yes.

But I remember also the play before the very last play of the game (josh int), where he dropped the GW touchdown

Wasn't an easy catch to do, but he 's paid as a very good / elite TE

(Josh starred at him right after the play, then threw the game ending INT right after this)

yep - a contested catch would have been nice and certainly could have happened.  Pretty obvious PI on that play too

44 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Allen SUCKS at QB sneaks.

 

He lost yesterday and last year at Tennesse not getting any yardage on either play.  Remember his heroic QB sneak versus Dallas on Thanksgiving, recall what he did their, he dropped that ball and got it back and wrestled for a major first down.

 

Allen is far too clumsy on his qb sneaks, he is slow and lumbers through them which allows the defense a micro-second long er to get to the ball.

 

Ne needs extensive practice on QB sneaks.

Incorrect

[zow2]

I can't shake this Vikings loss.  Maybe because i was there.  This one cuts deeper than the 13 seconds for me...even though that one had season ending ramifications. 

This loss yesterday has me questioning everything  about this Bills squad..players and the coaching staff.  This was predicted to be a Super Bowl contender.  Injuries on D hurt, but the O has been relatively healthy.

Edited November 14, 2022 by zow2

[2003Contenders]

Thanks for this Virgil. This is very therapeutic -- and I appreciate your not going the gloom and doom route.

 

It really is a shame how this ended. Through 3-and-half quarters Josh played a very good game. Made some clutch plays with his arm and legs. At one point, he had like 10 straight completions. He was also careful with the ball multiple times throwing it away rather than forcing screens that the defense sniffed out. BTW, those screens need to be set up better; I think the original play-call on the ill-fated 4th down play was a screen that was also sniffed out, which led Josh to scramble to his right and force the desperation pass. Still, everyone will remember that INT (which was proceeded on the very same drive by some very clutch 3rd-and-long throws/catches), the fumble in the endzone and the INT in overtime. And none of those things had to happen.

 

I am not sure who is to blame for so much of the questionable play-calling (especially in the 2nd half). Was it Dorsey -- or did Josh check out of plays? For all the talk about these gut wrenching plays -- the thing that I have not seen anyone talk about, which definitely was ALL on the coaching staff, was the next-to-last offensive series in regulation.

 

Recall that after the endzone TD, the Vikings had just scored a TD -- and missed the ensuing extra point to make it a 4-point game with about 4 minutes to go. The object for the Bills' offense there should have been to go into a "4-minute offense" and try to drain the clock without ever giving the ball back to the Vikings -- or  at least drain enough clock so that they get the ball back with no timeouts and minimal time left on the clock.

 

What do the Bills do? They go into shotgun, and throw three straight passes -- two of which were low percentage plays that fell incomplete. Only about a minute came off the clock, and the play-calls and poor execution (with a drop by Diggs and a penalty mixed in) actually served to aid the Vikings!