Wawrow hints an Internal Issues with the Bills

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

So 22 of our last 24 plays were passes and then we line up to do this?

I would think players would be pissed at their coaches for putting them in this position - again talk about again letting the D know what is coming..

 

We ran twice out of 24 plays, abandoned the run, have had trouble running up the middle all season long - look at the stack over the middle against team with a strong DL and Harrison Smith. How many times do we get Gabe to push Josh - no wonder he fumbled (doesn't look like a snap issue, but every player on offense knew what was coming) and you have to wonder if they had any confidence in their ability to get out of the EZ

 

I don’t mind the lack of running calls. 

 

In the 3rd and 4th quarter we ran the ball 8 times. We gained 1 yard or less on 5 of those 8 rush attempts.

 

How many more times should we have wasted a down trying to run the ball?

 

But yeah that QB sneak out of the endzone was just awful.

 

 

[Franco_92]

This thread just makes me sad. 

 

I believe and hope that the Bills win a super bowl. I hope this doesn't come unraveled. We are so close and have it so good right now all things considered 

[Reed83HOF]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I hate this argument. The reason you take 3 points there to go up by 13 is that you are now in a better position to go up by three scores with a defensive stop and another FG drive. Or worst case scenario if the Vikings score a TD to bring it within 6, another FG puts you up by two scores again. I don't need to stretch too far to prove my point - 33 points in regulation wins this game. We were 3 short. Any points on that drive keeps the game in front of us. Instead we gave a huge momentum swing to the Vikings that we never got back.

 

This 4th down aggressive crap is sweeping the NFL and IMO it puts teams in bad situations more than it helps. Everyone talks about Allen trying to win the game on one play - but this is exactly what McDermott did when he went for it on 4th and 2. The Vikings didn't try anything crazy like that. They let the game come to them and let us make the critical mistakes in critical moments. For cripes' sake we were already winning the game, we just needed to put a little more pressure on the Vikings. Especially for a team that has struggled in the red zone and short yardage situations, it was a joke of a coaching decision.

 

And for the record I was saying this before we failed to convert the 4th down.

 

No argument - here is a question for you though...

 

What did Brady and the Pats always do to us (and everyone for that matter) when they were up on us and it was 4th and short on our end of the field?

[AuntieEm]

6 minutes ago, boyst said:

I saw screen shots and had some reputable folks from this site who I talk to regularly describe the Chargers game as damn near mutiny.

 

It was similar the COVID year in Tennessee and then we cut Spain. 

   If this is the case then my gut feeling of having a Bickering Bills scenario that they are trying to keep covered up is spot on.  However , it appears there is some real disconnect when you have players going rogue and mutinying.  So there needs to be a leadership change.  Even Allen does not get to make ultimatum to coaching decisions.  The seems to be some clues that he may be giving too much say in how they play 4th and shorts.  I want my coaching  staff to have a few bright young coaching assistants having already researched the opponents tendencies and talent in defending that down distance.  If they see some weakness that upon further scrutiny the opponent has not made changes to correct then you can have several plays picked out if that 4th and short is encountered in the game.  I don't want generic averages with no context deciding to go for it .  Know the risks failing to get it bring then chose based 9n how your team is performing.  

[Nelius]

1 hour ago, Budkin said:

It's pretty obvious at this point. I really hope we replace him.

Is it that obvious? I wouldn't doubt that there are some. Maybe even an increasing amount. But I can't think of anybody that seems to obviously dislike him so am genuinely curious who you and others think. It definitely seemed like Feliciano had some issues but a lot of that may be general sour grapes, and he seems to say just about anything.

 

On the other side of things it seems that Micah Hyde legitimately likes him, and he's a defensive leader that kind of took over Hughes role by default.

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

So 22 of our last 24 plays were passes and then we line up to do this?

I would think players would be pissed at their coaches for putting them in this position - again talk about again letting the D know what is coming..

 

We ran twice out of 24 plays, abandoned the run, have had trouble running up the middle all season long - look at the stack over the middle against team with a strong DL and Harrison Smith. How many times do we get Gabe to push Josh - no wonder he fumbled (doesn't look like a snap issue, but every player on offense knew what was coming) and you have to wonder if they had any confidence in their ability to get out of the EZ

I think most of the reporters end up talking and they obviously can't report everything they know or hear because no one will talk to them ever again...

 

when you start seeing smoke from multiple sources - digg a little bit and try to put the puzzle (clues) together

Based on how much Josh is forcing throws and not going through his progressions, I honestly think either option is possible.

 

Is Dorsey trying to ice the game? 
 

Maybe Dorsey is trying to get Josh in rhythm and settled? 
 

Or is Josh checking into a pass? If he’s not looking anybody off, and forcing throws, I’m tempted to think he’s misreading the defense pre snap and that’s where this all goes wonky?

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I'm glad you provided that chart.

There has been a huge amount of complaining about that decision to go for it vs. not, with everyone assuming it was the wrong thing to do simply because it didn't work out.  I loved the decision (at the time).  

We have been EXCELLENT at analytic-based decisions on 4th down and I honestly can't believe McDermott (being so conservative by nature) has a team/staff that is this forward thinking .

 

I agree we need MORE of this and not less.

 

 

 

Context though. Should you go for fourth down if your 3rd string QB is in? No.  Why? Context.

 

When the offense is humming, go for it.

When your QB is struggling, don’t.

 

Its tough to argue that we win if we kick the field goal.

 

The Vikings got the ball 2 more times in regulation and they scored 2 more touchdowns.

 

They couldn’t have scored more than they did, possession wise. They maxed out on possessions.

 

They would have had to convert both two points conversions just to get it to a tie (assuming we still get that extra Bass field goal).

[Mango]

10 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I don’t mind the lack of running calls. 

 

In the 3rd and 4th quarter we ran the ball 8 times. We gained 1 yard or less on 5 of those 8 rush attempts.

 

How many more times should we have wasted a down trying to run the ball?

 

But yeah that QB sneak out of the endzone was just awful.

 

 

5 times we rolled 30 seconds off the clock. 
 

Also, if your QB refuses to throw high percentage passes, you gotta keep the clock running. 

[boyst]

19 minutes ago, Mango said:

Poyer, Hyde, Tre, Von. All those guys work hard, play hard, and joke around a ton. (Albeit different levels)

 

Von post game of week one after Cooks fumble says “Cook is going to be a player. You can see it in practice. Plenty of guys botch their first carry”

 

Stef “I guess 47 did alright. I don’t call rookies by their names”.

 

I don’t know. That is such a silly example. I love everything about Von. There is something about the way VM carries himself that makes Diggs seem like such a wiener by contrast. 

I disagree. Diggs is sincere and unfiltered raw. He's a dick, sure.

 

VM seems contrived and artificial. He speaks well but it doesn't seem genuine. He doesn't show passion like Diggs so it's different.

 

I see Diggs playing to win, chip on his shoulder with emotions always trying to bust out. I see Miller as someone who punches the clock, knows his role and his Excellency.

 

The latter is not an insult to Miller but I've seen him take plays off. He did so a few times yesterday. (all players do, but all players are not Miller)

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

What did Brady and the Pats always do to us (and everyone for that matter) when they were up on us and it was 4th and short on our end of the field?

 

4th and 1 or less they would QB sneak it every time. I'm fine with that. This was 4th and 2 and we go into shotgun and every WR runs into the end zone. It is a completely over the top decision in a game that we had in hand. This coaching staff has decided it hates FGs and it hates punts to such a degree that we hurt ourselves trying to avoid them. You think that mindset might have creeped into the QB's head too? I'm all for going for it on 4th down when it makes sense, but we have gotten in the habit of doing it any time we're past midfield with less than 5 yards to go. What did going for it on 4th down do for us against the Chiefs? A turnover on downs inside the 10, and a turnover on downs at midfield. Ooh the big bad scary Chiefs, can't afford to play conservatively!

 

I will say this isn't a Bills specific problem, coaches across the league are now terrified that if they don't go for it on 4th down and end up losing the game they will be harassed by the media. Whereas if a coach goes for it on 4th down and loses the game as a result, some amateur math geek on Twitter posts a chart that nobody actually understands which supposedly proves the coach improved his team's win percentage probability by 0.9% and everyone moves on. It's all total crap.

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Call it a hunch, but I don't think the players like Sean McDermott.

 

No inside information here.  This is a guess on my part.  I think McD is approaching "phony" territory in the eyes of a lot of those guys after the latest debacle.  Maybe 13 seconds is a lingering problem.  I don't know.   But it's got to be hard to listen to "process this" and "process that" from a little dude whose team consistently finds a way to screw it up when it means the most.  

 

This game should not define our season.  But man, when you think about all of the stuff we had to do wrong to lose, it really is mind-boggling. 

 

To elaborate a bit about what I heard post-13 seconds, the flight home was chaos.  Guys screaming, crying, punching out seats, screaming at each other, screaming at the staff.  If it's true that nobody on the staff has ever explained what happened in the aftermath of that mess, it can't be a good look in the locker room to have this mess occur half a season later.  Lack of accountability from a guy who demands it from everyone, I fear, is leading us to "phony" territory. 

[Reed83HOF]

28 minutes ago, Mango said:

Based on how much Josh is forcing throws and not going through his progressions, I honestly think either option is possible.

 

Is Dorsey trying to ice the game? 
 

Maybe Dorsey is trying to get Josh in rhythm and settled? 
 

Or is Josh checking into a pass? If he’s not looking anybody off, and forcing throws, I’m tempted to think he’s misreading the defense pre snap and that’s where this all goes wonky?

 

My guess is it is scheme and play calls; possibly poor execution as far as separation from the Cover 1 screen shot and Josh not taking what is there (he is pressing in the end zone)

this is just Josh's nerves  - he really is trying to run it before he has it. Again pressing, nervous etc. It's on him and I would say the coaching staff if they didn't pull him aside to get his focus and mindset right. Help your guy who is struggling right now to stay focused and calm...
 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Reed83HOF

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

My guess is it is scheme and play calls; possibly poor execution as far as separation from the Cover 1 screen shot

this is just Josh's nerves  - he really is trying to run it before he has it. Again pressing, nervous etc. It's on him and I would say the coaching staff if they didn't pull him aside to get his focus and mindset right. Help your guy who is struggling right now to stay focused and calm...
 

 

 

If I have sized up Dorsey right he is reaching out to people he trusts. Mentors, etc. Hopefully Ron Rivera, too. 

 

I see him as learning a lot this week. 

 

McDermott is going to go to the MMA gym, though. He's a players coach. 

[Reed83HOF]

This makes me feel better with what I thought I saw at the game in my end zone, Devin wasn't open on the last play until it was too late
 

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

28 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Context though. Should you go for fourth down if your 3rd string QB is in? No.  Why? Context.

 

When the offense is humming, go for it.

When your QB is struggling, don’t.

 

Its tough to argue that we win if we kick the field goal.

 

The Vikings got the ball 2 more times in regulation and they scored 2 more touchdowns.

 

They couldn’t have scored more than they did, possession wise. They maxed out on possessions.

 

They would have had to convert both two points conversions just to get it to a tie (assuming we still get that extra Bass field goal).

question for you

You project based on being up 13 instead of 10 that they wouldn't have been able to get 13 points on us based on changing the play calling on our end. You cannot keep their play calling on their subsequent drives the same as they were, playing to tie with a FG or being forced to get a TD...

 

The D gave up 26 points in the 2nd half - do you really think we would have stopped them? I don't; they were killing us

[BigBadBills]

9 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

This makes me feel better with what I thought I saw at the game in my end zone, Devin wasn't open on the last play until it was too late
 

 

 

Gabe looks open if Josh makes a better throw.

[Nextmanup]

4 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Allow me to piggyback some additional unconfirmed speculation onto that. There was a complaint by an unnamed player shortly after the KC playoff loss. He said that McD preaches accountability and demands it from the players, but does not walk the talk himself. McD dodging accountability for what happened at the end of that game seemed to be what brought up the statement. I don’t know how much truth there is to it in general, but it certainly seemed true in that instance. I don’t really watch many pressers. How has McDermott been as far as taking responsibility for the recent losses?

Well, on Sunday, his first comments in the post-game PC threw Josh under the bus.

 

You can listen to it you know, at wgr550.com.

 

Instead of a generic, team oriented comment like "we didn't play well enough to win" or similar crap, he directly went to the issue of turning the ball over so many times.  He said "It's really hard to win when you don't protect the ball like that" or similar.

 

Considering Josh fumbled the exchange and made two HORRID interception throws, if those comments don't shine a lot on the QB, I don't know what would.

 

You can just tell; the guy has a TINY *****.  

[kota]

Have you heard John's question in the press conferences?  It is some times a rambling mess that McD has to clarify his question constantly.  

Sorry but the local Bills media knows less than the national media on a consistent basis.  

[Einstein]

35 minutes ago, Mango said:

5 times we rolled 30 seconds off the clock.

Rick Dennison likes your way of thinking.

[Reed83HOF]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

4th and 1 or less they would QB sneak it every time. I'm fine with that. This was 4th and 2 and we go into shotgun and every WR runs into the end zone. It is a completely over the top decision in a game that we had in hand. This coaching staff has decided it hates FGs and it hates punts to such a degree that we hurt ourselves trying to avoid them. You think that mindset might have creeped into the QB's head too? I'm all for going for it on 4th down when it makes sense, but we have gotten in the habit of doing it any time we're past midfield with less than 5 yards to go. What did going for it on 4th down do for us against the Chiefs? A turnover on downs inside the 10, and a turnover on downs at midfield. Ooh the big bad scary Chiefs, can't afford to play conservatively!

 

I will say this isn't a Bills specific problem, coaches across the league are now terrified that if they don't go for it on 4th down and end up losing the game they will be harassed by the media. Whereas if a coach goes for it on 4th down and loses the game as a result, some amateur math geek on Twitter posts a chart that nobody actually understands which supposedly proves the coach improved his team's win percentage probability by 0.9% and everyone moves on. It's all total crap.

So you have a lot of personal feelings built in here, Getting rid of all of that - I see this:

 

This was 4th and 2 and we go into shotgun and every WR runs into the end zone

 

And that play call would be a problem right? Kind of like; you need 10 yards and every receiver runs to the 7 yard line with the D right on their backs...

 

a poor play call =/= a bad decision.

 

In this instance if we dropped the pass, got stuffed at the line or Josh saw there was no play and tossed it away or ran for no gain; they have the ball on their 7 yard line. Their is only one thing you shouldn't do, throw a pic that could have a return on it, with all of our WR in the end zone - who is there to make that tackle? Poor situational awareness by Josh and even Dorsey making that call and not reminding him to not throw a pic on it.

 

You see the 3 points as a way to make the math work based on the outcome we already have. The information that is missing is if we kick the FG and miss it, they have it at the roughly the (14 instead of 7 spot of kick) spot as a turnover on downs, or we make it and they are down 13 instead of 10 which is still 2 scores. The vikings would have called much different plays to get the TD instead of taking shots and being able to settle for the FG. That entire drive would have looked different and you have no idea on how that would have played out. Based on how they were moving the ball against our D, they very likely would have gotten the TD

11 minutes ago, HulkSmashMafia said:

Gabe looks open if Josh makes a better throw.

It looks that way. IIRC Josh said in post game that he waws worried about Harrison Smith and didn't want ot lead him too much, He was going for that tight throw, but Peterson slow played and jumped it