Wawrow hints an Internal Issues with the Bills

[Reed83HOF]

17 minutes ago, boyst said:

It was great

 

 

I think he can rebuild the trust in McKenzie. He has spoken well of him before and looked for him yesterday. Their past chemistry is there and if im buying stock in anyone right now it's him

 

Also, I'm concerned with the lack of trust the team has in Hines. Trotting out Cook was fine for a few plays but Hines was brought in by Beane to be a great weapon McD said, "nah bro... Duke Johnson is gonna be me dude.". Going in to be game I was excited we had all 3 going in and like that we still have Gillam and Morris to work in... Two players thar succeeded earlier in the season we have seemingly lost.

 

So Josh's pressure is obvious. His hero ball mentality is back from 2019 with some yips. He doesn't have anyone to calm him down and Dorsey wouldn't be that guy. Now, I've loved Dorsey since he coached Newton to his best playing years but he's not the guy who is ready to temper a young developing QB. Josh isn't Tua or Burrow coming into the league. He's Rodgers or Brady. He is still learning.

 

I bring this up in why I think Daboll had more value than McDermott. The cards didn't fall to get that to happen, though. 

 

So...I will play along with this.

 

We had what 5 RBs active, ran reasonably well in the first half. Get stuffed and go nowhere early in the 2nd half and entirely abandon the run. Duke had a couple carries, Hines was on the field for like 2 offensive plays, didn't try to use Cook's speed to get around the edge, didn't even try to use our best RB until the frantic drive to tie the game. Why have 5 RBs dress and only run a handful of times in 30 mins of game time when you were up 17 points? Is this just unique to this year or this OC or was it an issue last year with an entirely different OC? Who decides to go away from the run? I see a failure to stick to a game plan that had 5 RBs dressed and playing and one that was working in the first half and again an inability to get it going again in the second half. So it gets abandoned and we become a very one-dimensional team, who makes mistakes (penalties) and then has to rely on heroics on 3rd and long to try to close out the game. You get in the compressed red zone as a pass only team who is almost always in shotgun, lack of pre-snap motion which allows the D to not have to react to anything before the ball is snapped and a QB who will rely on his arm to force a ball in a tight window too often, just to make that play. 2nd and 2 and you through a bad INT because no one is open, the QB things a INT down there is the equivalent of turning the ball over, but of course no one is able to stop the return out and it was so close a pick 6 - no one was there. IIRC, Josh was out of bounds or close to it and had to run back in to get him at our 34. Screams poor coaching on offense in pressure situations and an inability to have 1 play that we can call to get 2 yards.

 

All the people in our section thought we would close the game out with the 41 seconds left, I saw this coming. Ball on the 3in line, an OL who cannot run block up the middle to save their lives, against a team with a strong DL - the only play is QB sneak. I told everyone who thought it was over, it's not yet; we have to get 2 plays to end it. 1 to get them to burn the TO and the other to run the clock out. By this point, the pressure on Josh to deliver was enormous and he choked. This is where I am not a fan of an OC who sits in the booth.

 

One non-scoring drive up 17, it happens, Two non-scoring drives and putting more pressure on your B team Secondary = letting a team hang around. 3 points in like 29:55 of game time with a depleted secondary, having Dodson attacked when Edmunds went out and Cam Lewis playing his first game as safety (who as a CB knows to knock the ball down, but with a first start as a Safety is thinking more about how to play the position and being in the right place instead playing) = recipe for disaster. 

 

This all falls on coaching IMO

[Chaos]

12 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Apples and bananas. Polian never had to deal with a salary cap when he built the Super Bowl Bills. What could Beane do with no cap?

Will be Beane be placed on one of the least profitable teams, like Polian was, for this exercise.  Beane has a level playing field. Polian was a big financial disadvantage

 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I said something yesterday about how Allen ought to be listening to Sinatra at halftime too. 🤷‍♂️

Passion is great at most positions, but at QB being dispassionate is equally as important, imo.

 

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

Doesn’t do a damn thing for you.?
 

hey, I know hindsight is 50/50 (as Hank Bullough once said)

 

But if Bills had taken the FG, the drive after the end zone fumble would have been for the game winning, not game tying FG. 

It does nothing

 

up 10 up 13? nope still 2 scores and keeps the game within reach. Even if you turn it over on downs, it is at their 7 yard line. One thing you cannot do - throw a pass to player who is covered (they all were) and get picked off and let them return it to our 34. Coaching would have told him, if it isn't there don't throw a pick and make them start at the 7. No one did that

 

How did taking all the FGs work out for us against KC 2 years ago? We don't have 2 plays that can get us 2 yards? Pathetic we don't have 1 play that we could call to get 1 yard 2 times..

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

It does nothing

 

up 10 up 13? nope still 2 scores and keeps the game within reach. Even if you turn it over on downs, it is at their 7 yard line. One thing you cannot do - throw a pass to player who is covered (they all were) and get picked off and let them return it to our 34. Coaching would have told him, if it isn't there don't throw a pick and make them start at the 7. No one did that

 

How did taking all the FGs work out for us against KC 2 years ago? We don't have 2 plays that can get us 2 yards? Pathetic we don't have 1 play that we could call to get 1 yard 2 times..

Yes because this is soccer and every score counts as 1.  13 points in meaningfully different than 10 points.  Its just stupid to argue otherwise. 

[Reed83HOF]

Finally did a little more digging:
 

This is coaching - how does our defensive minded HC not talk to our OC about what it is likely trying to defend all passes, almost exclusively from the shot gun and mostly option routes and RB rail Routes? We also call the follow play that according to the tape Josh screws up every time? Rip it out of the playbook. Sean is not doing his job with Dorsey

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Reed83HOF

[PromoTheRobot]

15 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Will be Beane be placed on one of the least profitable teams, like Polian was, for this exercise.  Beane has a level playing field. Polian was a big financial disadvantage

 

 

I can't seem to find details of salaries during the 90's. But on Sportrac 9 of the top 100 salaries in 1993 were Bills players, including #7, 8 and 9. Ralph trusted Bill enough to open his wallet.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/1993/

Edited November 15, 2022 by PromoTheRobot

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

While we were waiting to get the F out of the parking lot and listening to the post game, apparently whomever the lousy Fox announcers were said we should have taken a safety are idiots too FWIW - awful idea...

 

Back to this though, the play calls were bad. It was 2nd and 2 and we couldn't get it done. After the INT and after he got off the ground, Josh chucked his helmet near the bench.

 

I'm not sure what changed in the second half, but we couldn't run and then quickly gave up. Now what I'm not sure of is if run plays were called and Josh checked out of them, but we make ourselves one dimensional way too much, especially in the red zone. One thing I picked up on was that Josh looked to be more effective and the WRs were able to get open better when we used motion and in the red zone, I don't recall seeing it much either, pretty easy to defend when you know the team is pass only and they are not making the D players respond to presnap motion. Put a savvy vet like Peterson there, of course he will jump the ball...Both INT's were right in front of us (Section 224), there wasn't much open in the End Zone at all.

 

The entire stadium gasped when Mackenzie turned in instead of trying to get out of bounds (thankfully he corrected that mistake and got out before someone tackled him)...

 

Now back to this thread...

 

@SectionC3says he heard 2nd hand that the offense and D were at each others throats after the 13 seconds (he has been a good poster here for a long time). Where do we go, if that is true? Let's build on it a little bit:

 

Ty Dunne Article

 

Sean didn't share what happened with the position coaches, those coaches didn't share anything with the players - it was just goodbye enjoy the offseason. He held a generic We'll grow from the address and that was it.   Our ST coordinator subsequently resigned and went to Jax.  One player said: " You preach accountability but you don't practice it." The players Dunne spoke to said they believe Bass was doing what he was told and through the players own investigation Sean is the one who called for the touchback. Farwell had the entire team ready for the Squib and McD told him to kick it out - that's why half off the STs were like what the hell when we kicked it out.

 

"After the game Emotions were up in the air, Everybody was angry and upset and Stefon Diggs was having an argument with a defensive player - just saying he was upset with the call and then Jerry Hughes stepped in. There was a big uproar and people were about the throw hands. McDermott comes in and says if you're about to blame anyone for what happened, you should blame him..." From what Dunne says that was the only time he said to blame him, the only time he was accountable to the team. But yet when he talks to the media it was just "lack of execution".

 

At the time of Dunne's article, the offseason hasn't started. As he says:

 

"There could be a leadership void on to fill on defense. The player who helped diffuse that locker room skirmish, Hughes,  is described as this unit's rock. One player calls him the most "passionate" and "vocal" player he ever met. Because of his experience, he was one player able to vocalize frustrations to the coaching staff which was appreciated by teammates...There coordinator who helped groom Allen is off to New York"

 

Let's not forget about the Flores lawsuit:

 

"Ironically, during their January 11, 2022, text exchange, Mr. McDonnell also suggested that if Mr. Flores were hired as the Giants Head Coach, Brian Daboll might be interested in leaving Buffalo to serve as his Offensive Coordinator (“Heard Daboll isn’t happy with Sean [McDermott] in Buffalo . . . might be able to get of if he doesn’t get a head job. . . thoughts?'”

 

JW's tweet: "There are some internal issues to contend with, that go beyond the distractions of the vaxxed vs. unvaxxed internal debate that nearly unglued the team last year. At some point ...this team needs to get on the same page as it did during the loss to Tampa Bay a year ago. Or it's going to end up being another empty season."

 

Where are we now and what divisions and issues still exist?

 

With the absence of Jerry, who does this now? Is it really Von? Is it Poyer? Outwards to the fans and media, MIller's presser was total optimism and upbeat and he is likely displaying this exuberance to counteract Diggs saying that they "Blinked". 

 

It certainly reads that parts of the offense vs defense division is still there and there is something that just isn't right within the coaching staff's ranks themselves. We also have to realize that some of these same observations/comments/thoughts are being said thorugh Dunne and jw, league circles know of displeasure between Daboll (offense) and McD (defensive guy). I know everyone here will have their own opinions and want to stick their head in the sand and call out the media, but what if there really is a fire where the smoke is?

 

A++ post.

 

When I heard about offensive players getting after defensive players, I knew it was Diggs. I get flamed for this, but I don’t like the way he jaws. I like jawing and guys with a chip, but I think Diggs always toes the line of destructive/distracting too often. 

To your point above, I didn’t really notice I didn’t like it until this season and after seeing Miller. They are polar opposites. 

[AuntieEm]

54 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

If people's assumptions that the players are not happy with McDermott, then McDermott will be gone at seasons end.

 

This will infuriate the crowd here that views him as having more passes than a hall monitor, but it would be the right move if the players aren't responding to his message

 

    It also  should mean some players should be gone.  Fine to disagree with the coach but to throw a game or not put in effort to win  those players need to be gone irregardless of coaching change or not.

[Reed83HOF]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

A++ post.

 

When I heard about offensive players getting after defensive players, I knew it was Diggs. I get flamed for this, but I don’t like the way he jaws. I like jawing and guys with a chip, but I think Diggs always toes the line of destructive/distracting too often. 

To your point above, I didn’t really notice I didn’t like it until this season and after seeing Miller. They are polar opposites. 

After the AFC Championship game, Diggs was distraught watching the celebration. We had them beat, I guarantee they knew they would have the AFC Championship at home and smoke Cincy, to lose like that giving up 3 points in 13 seconds like that - who can freaking blame him? In an emotional game like that and you did your job and the other 11 didn't? I'm shocked it was only him tbh...

 

If it is true McD only said once blame me and never offered any explanation and only said execution from then on out - that is an epic leadership failure that is not healing wounds and getting the 2 sides on the same page. Tell the team your rationale, be honest - good leaders do that and admit what your throught process was and that you f'd up...

 

History is repeating itself and it is ripe for this rift to open back up. Now that I see what Cover 1 put up, I'm furious with McD not working with Dorsey

1 minute ago, AuntieEm said:

 

    It also  should mean some players should be gone.  Fine to disagree with the coach but to throw a game or not put in effort to win  those players need to be gone irregardless of coaching change or not.

Curious to see what happens with Poyer...

 

What I hope doesn't happen is that this doesn't drive OBJ away, we desperatley need another WR option on offense who can produce and relieve pressure on Josh, Dorsey, the defense and Sean...

19 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Yes because this is soccer and every score counts as 1.  13 points in meaningfully different than 10 points.  Its just stupid to argue otherwise. 

Jefferson had 200 yards receiving against us and Cook was gaining yards once Edmunds went out. Those 3 points would not have mattered; the game would have ended before OT if they had to score a Tuddy

[boyst]

15 minutes ago, Mango said:

A++ post.

 

When I heard about offensive players getting after defensive players, I knew it was Diggs. I get flamed for this, but I don’t like the way he jaws. I like jawing and guys with a chip, but I think Diggs always toes the line of destructive/distracting too often. 

To your point above, I didn’t really notice I didn’t like it until this season and after seeing Miller. They are polar opposites. 

You heard right  someone else mentioned it after  It was diggs stirring the pot and flaming the DBs (Wallace) vs hughes. Davis got involved. 

 

If you notice Diggs and our WRs are oil while our DBs are water. They don't show much support there. And our WR personalities are the antithesis of how Poyer and Hyde are. 

 

My hope is Tre loosens things up for them. Mixed in with young rookies. 

[Reed83HOF]

23 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Yes because this is soccer and every score counts as 1.  13 points in meaningfully different than 10 points.  Its just stupid to argue otherwise. 

Pay attention to the chart on the right
 

Analytics is our friend

[boyst]

11 minutes ago, AuntieEm said:

 

    It also  should mean some players should be gone.  Fine to disagree with the coach but to throw a game or not put in effort to win  those players need to be gone irregardless of coaching change or not.

I saw screen shots and had some reputable folks from this site who I talk to regularly describe the Chargers game as damn near mutiny.

 

It was similar the COVID year in Tennessee and then we cut Spain. 

[Reed83HOF]

 

 

We have been figured out - no adjustments = Coaching
 

 

[CEN-CAL17]

Does it make you wonder if Josh is calling off run plays???? Or is the “remember the defense gave up 26”points a shot Frazier? 
 

Up by 17 in the second half, RBs touch the ball 3x. What’s really going on? I wonder if this guy likes the lime light or if he really has inside info???

[Reed83HOF]

So 22 of our last 24 plays were passes and then we line up to do this?

I would think players would be pissed at their coaches for putting them in this position - again talk about again letting the D know what is coming..

 

We ran twice out of 24 plays, abandoned the run, have had trouble running up the middle all season long - look at the stack over the middle against team with a strong DL and Harrison Smith. How many times do we get Gabe to push Josh - no wonder he fumbled (doesn't look like a snap issue, but every player on offense knew what was coming) and you have to wonder if they had any confidence in their ability to get out of the EZ

5 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Does it make you wonder if Josh is calling off run plays???? Or is the “remember the defense gave up 26”points a shot Frazier? 
 

Up by 17 in the second half, RBs touch the ball 3x. What’s really going on? I wonder if this guy likes the lime light or if he really has inside info???

I think most of the reporters end up talking and they obviously can't report everything they know or hear because no one will talk to them ever again...

 

when you start seeing smoke from multiple sources - digg a little bit and try to put the puzzle (clues) together

[Nextmanup]

12 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Pay attention to the chart on the right
 

Analytics is our friend

I'm glad you provided that chart.

There has been a huge amount of complaining about that decision to go for it vs. not, with everyone assuming it was the wrong thing to do simply because it didn't work out.  I loved the decision (at the time).  

We have been EXCELLENT at analytic-based decisions on 4th down and I honestly can't believe McDermott (being so conservative by nature) has a team/staff that is this forward thinking .

 

I agree we need MORE of this and not less.

 

 

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, boyst said:

You heard right  someone else mentioned it after  It was diggs stirring the pot and flaming the DBs (Wallace) vs hughes. Davis got involved. 

 

If you notice Diggs and our WRs are oil while our DBs are water. They don't show much support there. And our WR personalities are the antithesis of how Poyer and Hyde are. 

 

My hope is Tre loosens things up for them. Mixed in with young rookies. 

Poyer, Hyde, Tre, Von. All those guys work hard, play hard, and joke around a ton. (Albeit different levels)

 

Von post game of week one after Cooks fumble says “Cook is going to be a player. You can see it in practice. Plenty of guys botch their first carry”

 

Stef “I guess 47 did alright. I don’t call rookies by their names”.

 

I don’t know. That is such a silly example. I love everything about Von. There is something about the way VM carries himself that makes Diggs seem like such a wiener by contrast. 

[HappyDays]

47 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

up 10 up 13? nope still 2 scores and keeps the game within reach.

 

I hate this argument. The reason you take 3 points there to go up by 13 is that you are now in a better position to go up by three scores with a defensive stop and another FG drive. Or worst case scenario if the Vikings score a TD to bring it within 6, another FG puts you up by two scores again. I don't need to stretch too far to prove my point - 33 points in regulation wins this game. We were 3 short. Any points on that drive keeps the game in front of us. Instead we gave a huge momentum swing to the Vikings that we never got back.

 

This 4th down aggressive crap is sweeping the NFL and IMO it puts teams in bad situations more than it helps. Everyone talks about Allen trying to win the game on one play - but this is exactly what McDermott did when he went for it on 4th and 2. The Vikings didn't try anything crazy like that. They let the game come to them and let us make the critical mistakes in critical moments. For cripes' sake we were already winning the game, we just needed to put a little more pressure on the Vikings. Especially for a team that has struggled in the red zone and short yardage situations, it was a joke of a coaching decision.

 

And for the record I was saying this before we failed to convert the 4th down.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by HappyDays

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I'm glad you provided that chart.

There has been a huge amount of complaining about that decision to go for it vs. not, with everyone assuming it was the wrong thing to do simply because it didn't work out.  I loved the decision (at the time).  

We have been EXCELLENT at analytic-based decisions on 4th down and I honestly can't believe McDermott (being so conservative by nature) has a team/staff that is this forward thinking .

 

I agree we need MORE of this and not less.

 

 

This took a bit to find, I was hoping someone had it. FWIW, with the exception of the one guy in my section who just hates Singletary and says we can't run stop running the ball, everyone looked at him and mocked him after his 2 Tuddys, the stadium consensus was happy as hell McD grew a pair and is being aggressive and going for the jugular. We need more of this