Dorsey’s lack of adjustments in the second half; 12 second half points in the last 3 games

[Nihilarian]

Nobody wants to win games more than Josh Allen, Ken Dorsey, McD, IMO

 

The football is an oblong spheroid and doesn't always bounce the way you want...besides, stuff happens. No Bills fan wanted to see this loss!

 

Let's not forget that Ken Dorsey is a rookie play caller and he is learning as he goes. Anyone else recall what Daboll was like back in 2018? Like when the team started Nathan Peterman over Josh? Or when Daboll saw what Allen could do with his legs he started calling for more QB runs. 

 

It took time for Daboll to develop into a top offensive play caller even with all his previous OC experience. Even then, he neglected the run game far too often in my view. 

 

Up 27-17, I was hoping the Bills would just keep scoring in the second half and put this game away. 

 

Also, I sure as heck get tired of hearing about how good this defense is statistically when they keep giving up big plays, long drives at the end of games. 481 yards given up to the Vikes. Yea, I know...injuries.

 

Buffalo 4 turnovers...so difficult to win games giving up the ball that much. 

 

Losing sucks...I expect this team to bounce back with 8 games left, Browns, Lions, Patriots, Jets, Dolphins, Bears, Bengals, Patriots.

 

14-3! Go Bills! 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Nihilarian

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I’ve been saying the same thing.  Everyone wants to blame McD or certain players.  But I’ve watched Dorsey more than once completely abandon the run game despite it being effective in the first half once the second half starts.  I’ve seen defenses adjust at halftime and Dorsey not.  I’ve seen terrible play calling plague the second half.  
 

it makes no sense.  First 7 games of the season we dominated the 3rd quarter, best in the NFL in point differential.  Suddenly now it’s like last year again where we can’t get anything going in the 3rd quarter.  
 

Im not down on Dorsey, but I will say I’m disappointed in 4 areas right now:

 

1.  Lack of adjustments in the 2nd half as we already discussed.  
 

2. Consistently starting with Devin running well early in games and then completely abandons him, including giving other guys rush attempts or not running at all.  I really thought he was going to more consistently involve the run game after how much our offense improved last year from the second half of the Bucs game to the end of playoffs once we got the run game consistently involved.  
 

3.  Lack of TE involvement in the pass game.  We went from maybe seeing a lot of 2 TE sets to only sporadically using Knox in the passing game.  With Dorsey’s history of playing with great TEs, I really expected him to use the position more as a weapon.  Knox has been doing great when given chances and as a blocker, but without a threat from the slot right now, we need to involve Knox more in the pass game.  
 

4.  Lack of designed runs for Allen in specific situations.  Daboll used WAY too many, Dorsey uses too few.  There have been a number of times where a designed Allen run would have been a much better call than the play he chose.  I don’t want to see Allen being used as a FB like Daboll did at times, but the vast majority of Allens rush yards this year are from him improvising.  Which is a great thing, and how it really should be as that’s when he’s most dangerous.  But at the same time, it’s like Dorsey forgets about how effective Allen can be a key situations with his legs and has taken that element out of the playbook.  It’s like we over corrected in that department.  

We called (8) run plays in the second half.

 

The first play of the second half was a run by Singletary for 9-yards, negated by a hold.

 

4 of the remaining 7 the Bills were stuffed for 0-1 yards. I hated that Duke Johnson run. Awareness is terrible. 

 

3 of the remaining 7 the Bills got 5-8 yards. Cook had one for 7, and one for 8.

 

For sure, the steady passing game moved the ball in larger chunks, but this team abandons the run, even when up multiple scores.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Low Positive]

 After every loss, there are multiple threads about McD being "outcoached." People love that word. But McD didn't tell Josh to fumble on the goal line. Dorsey didn't tell Josh to throw an interception in OT.  In fact, Ken Dorsey called a play with multiple safe pass options. It was Josh Allen that decided to try to force it in to Gabe. I think that people's default is to blame coaching and play calling because they feel that it is the part of the game that they could do. We all know that we can't throw the ball as far as Josh, but we think that we could call a better play than the ones that don't work. The Bills turned the ball over 4 times yesterday. That's all on the players and that's why they lost this game.

Edited November 14, 2022 by FrenchConnection

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, FrenchConnection said:

 After every loss, there are multiple threads about McD being "outcoached." People love that word. But McD didn't tell Josh to fumble on the goal line. Dorsey didn't tell Josh to throw an interception in OT.  In fact, Ken Dorsey called a play with multiple safe pass options. It was Josh Allen that decided to try to force it in to Gabe. I think that people's default is to blame coaching and playc alling because they feel that it is the part of the game that they could do. We all know that we can't throw the ball as far as Josh, but we think that we could call a better play than the ones that don't work. The Bills turned the ball over 4 times yesterday. That's all on the players and that's why they lost this game.

What were the safe options?

 

Frame by frame look at that again.

 

McKenzie is blanketed immediately in that route. 
 

Singletary chips, and releases late. Josh could have waited and dumped, I agree, but there are two Vikings standing at the first down marker, he may have gotten 5 yards.

 

Otherwise Josh needed to throw it out of the back of the end zone. 

[Low Positive]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

What were the safe options?

 

Frame by frame look at that again.

 

McKenzie is blanketed immediately in that route. 
 

Singletary chips, and releases late. Josh could have waited and dumped, I agree, but there are two Vikings standing at the first down marker, he may have gotten 5 yards.

 

Otherwise Josh needed to throw it out of the back of the end zone. 

I don't know, maybe you're right. But Josh can't throw that ball in that situation. But then again, he probably shouldn't have thrown that ball to Knox on the game winning TD against KC. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, FrenchConnection said:

I don't know, maybe you're right. But Josh can't throw that ball in that situation. But then again, he probably shouldn't have thrown that ball to Knox on the game winning TD against KC. 

The route concept was idiotic.

 

When you look at the end zone, there are three Bills receivers standing a total of 15 yards apart. They all ran to the same spot.
 

What were you trying to do there and why was Quintin Morris on the field? 

[Jerry Jabber]

4 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

 After every loss, there are multiple threads about McD being "outcoached." People love that word. But McD didn't tell Josh to fumble on the goal line. Dorsey didn't tell Josh to throw an interception in OT.  In fact, Ken Dorsey called a play with multiple safe pass options. It was Josh Allen that decided to try to force it in to Gabe. I think that people's default is to blame coaching and play calling because they feel that it is the part of the game that they could do. We all know that we can't throw the ball as far as Josh, but we think that we could call a better play than the ones that don't work. The Bills turned the ball over 4 times yesterday. That's all on the players and that's why they lost this game.

2nd half points vs The Packers: 3

2nd half points vs The Jets: 3

2nd half points vs The Vikings: 6

Last time the Bills threw a 2nd half TD: vs The Chiefs

 

I’m not one of those types that says “fire this coach” after a bad game, but multiple games in a row where you see the lack of 2nd half adjustments is cause for concern.

[st pete gogolak]

I go back, yet again, to the Green Bay game.  Not just the second half, but the whole mentality going into that game.  We're coming off a bye and GB has one of the two worst run D's in the league.  It was an ideal game to run the ball more and at least attempt to provide some balance to the offense.  OK, really didn't do that in the first have but you come out with a 24 - 7 lead at the half.  You're going to pound, pound, pound the ball in the second half, right?  Nope, it's the Packers who do that!! We play like we're behind 24 - 7.  This team hasn't looked remotely right since the second half of the GB game.

[TheBrownBear]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

2nd half points vs The Packers: 3

2nd half points vs The Jets: 3

2nd half points vs The Vikings: 6

Last time the Bills threw a 2nd half TD: vs The Chiefs

 

I’m not one of those types that says “fire this coach” after a bad game, but multiple games in a row where you see the lack of 2nd half adjustments is cause for concern.

To be fair to Dorsey, Josh Allen turned the ball over 6 times in those 2nd halves - with most of the turnovers being on the doorstep of scoring range.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, st pete gogolak said:

I go back, yet again, to the Green Bay game.  Not just the second half, but the whole mentality going into that game.  We're coming off a bye and GB has one of the two worst run D's in the league.  It was an ideal game to run the ball more and at least attempt to provide some balance to the offense.  OK, really didn't do that in the first have but you come out with a 24 - 7 lead at the half.  You're going to pound, pound, pound the ball in the second half, right?  Nope, it's the Packers who do that!! We play like we're behind 24 - 7.  This team hasn't looked remotely right since the second half of the GB game.

Yeah that whole night was a lot lower energy than I would have expected. 

3 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

It's so bizarre.  I've been going through other team's box scores to see if there's a trend with any other teams looking like a completely different team the second half.

 

There is. The Vikings.  Except in the opposite order and we saw that yesterday.

 

The Bills had that stat going for awhile were they didn't allow a 3rd quarter or 2nd half TD.

 

That's obviously gone out the window and now the stat is our own team not being able to score a TD in the second half.

We called 8 run plays in the second half and the first one was on the Bills first possession and was a 9-yard run negated by a hold.

 

So 7 called run plays in a game you’re up two scores for most of it, coming off a first half where you looked great with it. 
 

But no, Josh with an injured elbow is your leading rusher again, nice to see. 

[TheBrownBear]

2 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

I go back, yet again, to the Green Bay game.  Not just the second half, but the whole mentality going into that game.  We're coming off a bye and GB has one of the two worst run D's in the league.  It was an ideal game to run the ball more and at least attempt to provide some balance to the offense.  OK, really didn't do that in the first have but you come out with a 24 - 7 lead at the half.  You're going to pound, pound, pound the ball in the second half, right?  Nope, it's the Packers who do that!! We play like we're behind 24 - 7.  This team hasn't looked remotely right since the second half of the GB game.

I actually think we looked damn good in the first half yesterday.  Singletary was heavily involved, 2 rushing TDs and we were picking up chunks of yardage on the ground.  Josh wasn't lighting it on fire, but was making the throws as needed.  For whatever reason (Devin's fumble?), we completely went away from that and played right into the Vikings hands after the Dalvin Cook touchdown.  Seemed like a collective chokejob by most everyone involved.  

[Dan]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I’ve been saying the same thing.  Everyone wants to blame McD or certain players.  But I’ve watched Dorsey more than once completely abandon the run game despite it being effective in the first half once the second half starts.  I’ve seen defenses adjust at halftime and Dorsey not.  I’ve seen terrible play calling plague the second half.  
 

it makes no sense.  First 7 games of the season we dominated the 3rd quarter, best in the NFL in point differential.  Suddenly now it’s like last year again where we can’t get anything going in the 3rd quarter.  
 

Im not down on Dorsey, but I will say I’m disappointed in 4 areas right now:

 

1.  Lack of adjustments in the 2nd half as we already discussed.  
 

2. Consistently starting with Devin running well early in games and then completely abandons him, including giving other guys rush attempts or not running at all.  I really thought he was going to more consistently involve the run game after how much our offense improved last year from the second half of the Bucs game to the end of playoffs once we got the run game consistently involved.  
 

3.  Lack of TE involvement in the pass game.  We went from maybe seeing a lot of 2 TE sets to only sporadically using Knox in the passing game.  With Dorsey’s history of playing with great TEs, I really expected him to use the position more as a weapon.  Knox has been doing great when given chances and as a blocker, but without a threat from the slot right now, we need to involve Knox more in the pass game.  
 

4.  Lack of designed runs for Allen in specific situations.  Daboll used WAY too many, Dorsey uses too few.  There have been a number of times where a designed Allen run would have been a much better call than the play he chose.  I don’t want to see Allen being used as a FB like Daboll did at times, but the vast majority of Allens rush yards this year are from him improvising.  Which is a great thing, and how it really should be as that’s when he’s most dangerous.  But at the same time, it’s like Dorsey forgets about how effective Allen can be a key situations with his legs and has taken that element out of the playbook.  It’s like we over corrected in that department.  

Quoted so its not buried. You nailed it. #2 and 3, in particular seem outrageous.  Singletary, in my mind, is starting to feel like the Fred Jackson situation.  We ha have a pretty good RB, he always picks up positive yards, rarely tackled for a loss; yet they are constantly looking for a replacement and/or abandon running with him all together.   It makes no sense. 
 

Josh’s QB sweep used to be deadly for yards, including touch downs inside the 15.  But we’ve removed that play entirely from the playbook.  Did Daboll have it patented and we can’t use it anymore?  I agree, don’t call QB keepers regularly, but there is a time and place.  But the coaches seem to have zero situational awareness for what is goin on in the game.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

With the Vikings knowing the Bills were going to do a QB sneak, they stacked the line and prepared for what was coming. All the Vikings had to do was make the Bills lose more than a half of yard and they would have gotten a safety at minimum. 
 

Against Dallas (I think on Thanksgiving), Allen/Morse botched the snap on the QB sneak, but the Bills got lucky, Allen recovered the fumble and outmuscled the opposition. The QB sneak failed last year against the Titans and it cost us the game. So, safest play at the half yard line?! Give me a break!

1 - False start does nothing - so go with a straight up hard count and eat the penalty.

 

2 - I probably spread them out and force them to match up.  Have allen go to the line like a sneak, and expect them to stack it.  If they don't stack?  Sneak.  If they do, move into shotgun and sprint to the sideline, worst case chuck it out of bounds and you've wasted some time, best case there's a breakdown and you get the needed yard or two, or even a completion.  

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, Dan said:

Quoted so its not buried. You nailed it. #2 and 3, in particular seem outrageous.  Singletary, in my mind, is starting to feel like the Fred Jackson situation.  We ha have a pretty good RB, he always picks up positive yards, rarely tackled for a loss; yet they are constantly looking for a replacement and/or abandon running with him all together.   It makes no sense. 
 

Josh’s QB sweep used to be deadly for yards, including touch downs inside the 15.  But we’ve removed that play entirely from the playbook.  Did Daboll have it patented and we can’t use it anymore?  I agree, don’t call QB keepers regularly, but there is a time and place.  But the coaches seem to have zero situational awareness for what is goin on in the game.  

Couldn’t agree more 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

I think that's exactly what happened.

Idk if it makes me feel better or worse now that we have a working theory lol even if he got stonewalled up the middle immediately  I severely doubt they’d get him behind the los. That feels like a mental error and a physical error now 😂

[Billz4ever]

31 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

I actually think we looked damn good in the first half yesterday.  Singletary was heavily involved, 2 rushing TDs and we were picking up chunks of yardage on the ground.  Josh wasn't lighting it on fire, but was making the throws as needed.  For whatever reason (Devin's fumble?), we completely went away from that and played right into the Vikings hands after the Dalvin Cook touchdown.  Seemed like a collective chokejob by most everyone involved.  

I thought they played a pretty good first half yesterday as well, but I had that feeling, based on the last couple games, we were going to go flat in the second half, and that's exactly what happened.  So disheartening to think that a 17-point lead at home in the 3rd quarter isn't safe.

[starrymessenger]

5 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Idk if it makes me feel better or worse now that we have a working theory lol even if he got stonewalled up the middle immediately  I severely doubt they’d get him behind the los. That feels like a mental error and a physical error now 😂

To me it's only all about a botched exchange. Something that should simply not happen - but does. Football gods are cruel.

[Billz4ever]

21 minutes ago, Dan said:

 

Josh’s QB sweep used to be deadly for yards, including touch downs inside the 15.  But we’ve removed that play entirely from the playbook.  Did Daboll have it patented and we can’t use it anymore?  I agree, don’t call QB keepers regularly, but there is a time and place.  But the coaches seem to have zero situational awareness for what is goin on in the game.  

Is this not exactly the play you're talking about? We ran it for a 36 yd TD last week.

 

https://youtu.be/-hISgjLjJdc

[I'm Spartacus]

6 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Except it's not. You saw what happened...in an attempt to not get a safety the center and QB exchange was not clean due to both players trying to make sure they got a little extra jump.

 

It appeared Morse tried to go from snap to block too quickly. 

 

Allen in the gun rolling out and throwing it away if he wasn't able to run for a few yards was the easy call there. It was first down, they had multiple shots to get a few yards, something he was doing well all game.

 

Or even a fake QB Sneak and then pitch out to Cook or Hines to the outside would have likely done the trick...you know...the old Mike Mulaekey special.

 

This says it all. Bad coaching PLUS bad execution 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

With the Vikings knowing the Bills were going to do a QB sneak, they stacked the line and prepared for what was coming. All the Vikings had to do was make the Bills lose more than a half of yard and they would have gotten a safety at minimum. 
 

Against Dallas (I think on Thanksgiving), Allen/Morse botched the snap on the QB sneak, but the Bills got lucky, Allen recovered the fumble and outmuscled the opposition. The QB sneak failed last year against the Titans and it cost us the game. So, safest play at the half yard line?! Give me a break!

That ‘all they had to do’ part is a nearly impossible task nowadays lol. You could not legally have a player pushing from behind to help the qb in the game against the titans.  Not to mention, watch that play again and look at the offensive formation.  That was not a traditional qb sneak by any means.  It was as much a trick play as a qb sneak.  Allen takes the snap and does not immediately fall forward with momentum. 
 

double not to mention,  if that exact result happened here we would’ve been fine because we didn’t need to GAIN yards.  We needed to not lose a half yard and Allen got back to the line on that play.  
so you have literally provided zero evidence of a sneak type play in the history of josh Allen that lost yardage even with a fumbled snap 
 

you can literally fumble a snap on any play Are you implying they only fumbled the snap because they were running a sneak?  Heck Kirk cousins got stepped on twice immediately after snapping the ball in this very game on non sneak plays which is a risk that doesn’t exist on a qb sneak because the quarterback immediately falls forward. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan