Looking for short gain

[Italian Bills]

One thing i would see to improve is the short yardage gain. 
 

We don’t have a very good running game, it can be because the OL that can’t create good holes, it can be that our back are not elite, one or another i don’t mind, we aren’t good. 
 

The running game is what control the clock and allow to gain few yards per down, if not in rare cases where a run get 20+ yards. 
 

But one thing that it seem our OC forgot is that you can gain short but very important yards through the air. 
 

We rely too much on the deep ball, that it’s obviously great when it works, but it’s also risky and much more difficult to get it done, also with a heck of a QB like Josh. 
 

I don’t understand why we don’t play more short passing schemes, slant, counter misdirection, hooks, quick out, etc. 
 

They are less risky, less incomplete passes or interception, the clock much under control gassing opponents D and leaving lot of pressure from Josh. 
 

Your thought ? 

[Xwnyer]

1 hour ago, Italian Bills said:

One thing i would see to improve is the short yardage gain. 
 

We don’t have a very good running game, it can be because the OL that can’t create good holes, it can be that our back are not elite, one or another i don’t mind, we aren’t good. 
 

The running game is what control the clock and allow to gain few yards per down, if not in rare cases where a run get 20+ yards. 
 

But one thing that it seem our OC forgot is that you can gain short but very important yards through the air. 
 

We rely too much on the deep ball, that it’s obviously great when it works, but it’s also risky and much more difficult to get it done, also with a heck of a QB like Josh. 
 

I don’t understand why we don’t play more short passing schemes, slant, counter misdirection, hooks, quick out, etc. 
 

They are less risky, less incomplete passes or interception, the clock much under control gassing opponents D and leaving lot of pressure from Josh. 
 

Your thought ? 

Those routes are open but Josh has been looking for deep ball last few games not taking what defense is giving. Back to Rookie Josh 

[Italian Bills]

6 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

Those routes are open but Josh has been looking for deep ball last few games not taking what defense is giving. Back to Rookie Josh 

Maybe…  it could be that, but in that case why Dorsey don’t tell him to use more often short balls ? 

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

Those routes are open but Josh has been looking for deep ball last few games not taking what defense is giving. Back to Rookie Josh 

To some degree this is true, Josh has made some bad decisions lately.  But to my eye, it does not appear anyone besides Diggs is getting any seperation, even on short passes.  The Jets and Pack contested every short pass.  Hines will most defintely help out.  Bills WR not Diggs need to step up now

[Mr. WEO]

15 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

Those routes are open but Josh has been looking for deep ball last few games not taking what defense is giving. Back to Rookie Josh 

 

Not really.

 

Out of 331 attempts this season, only 30 have been for over 20 yards.  Only 89 have been for over 10 yards.   73% of his pass attempts have traveled under 10 yards in the air.

[HOUSE]

Looking to stop the run

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1. I think the Bills can run decently and choose not to.

 

Devin’s high carry mark this year is 17, last year it was 23. He has with numerous games below 10 carries.

 

The Cook “trust” point is over rated, he has looked fast when given opportunity.

On Hines, I think he will be ok, nothing more. I expect 3 catches, 20 yards in a typical game. I don’t see him as a playmaker. 

2. Part of the throwing short is Gabe Davis is ineffective on anything other than go routes. 
 

And because the Bills refuse to utilize Kahlil Shakir (or Jake Kumerow) then are stuck with little Isaiah McKenzie and we know they don’t trust him as much more than a bit player.

 

Knox could and should get more involved over the middle of the field, I don’t know why they don’t move him around more, other than he has to stay close to help a bad offensive line.

 

Bottom line for me is the Bills don’t utilize their full compliment of players. The pecking order is of course Diggs first, and too often, good players don’t see the ball enough. McKenzie has no package of plays like he did in the past, Knox is not used out of the backfield or over the middle, where are the Gabe Davis toe-tap routes to the sidelines on crossers? 
 

Kahlil Shakir looked great against Pittsburgh and the Ravens and then disappeared back to the bench. 
 

Dorsey has not been creative enough.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Knox should be getting 10 targets a game. Dorsey is underutilizing him terribly 

[nosejob]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Knox should be getting 10 targets a game. Dorsey is underutilizing him terribly 

I believe it's because he's constantly needed to help pass protect.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Just now, nosejob said:

I believe it's because he's constantly needed to help pass protect.

That is part of it. But that goes to play design. You don't need your TE to pass block if you are getting the ball out quick. He's too much of a receiving threat to keep in to block.

[LyndonvilleBill]

1 minute ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Knox should be getting 10 targets a game. Dorsey is underutilizing him terribly 

I think this game will definitely be the real test for Dorsey. Will he get Knox, McKenzie, Shakir more involved? Does he have the skill set to switch/call more of a run first gameplan ? Will be an interesting game.

[Italian Bills]

48 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

1. I think the Bills can run decently and choose not to.

 

Devin’s high carry mark this year is 17, last year it was 23. He has with numerous games below 10 carries.

 

The Cook “trust” point is over rated, he has looked fast when given opportunity.

On Hines, I think he will be ok, nothing more. I expect 3 catches, 20 yards in a typical game. I don’t see him as a playmaker. 

2. Part of the throwing short is Gabe Davis is ineffective on anything other than go routes. 
 

And because the Bills refuse to utilize Kahlil Shakir (or Jake Kumerow) then are stuck with little Isaiah McKenzie and we know they don’t trust him as much more than a bit player.

 

Knox could and should get more involved over the middle of the field, I don’t know why they don’t move him around more, other than he has to stay close to help a bad offensive line.

 

Bottom line for me is the Bills don’t utilize their full compliment of players. The pecking order is of course Diggs first, and too often, good players don’t see the ball enough. McKenzie has no package of plays like he did in the past, Knox is not used out of the backfield or over the middle, where are the Gabe Davis toe-tap routes to the sidelines on crossers? 
 

Kahlil Shakir looked great against Pittsburgh and the Ravens and then disappeared back to the bench. 
 

Dorsey has not been creative enough.

 

 

I totally agree with two of your points: 

 

- using more often Shakir that i see a very good player with chance to become top

- using more Knox in the mid range middle of the field, like 5 to 8 yards deep. 

[Nextmanup]

3 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

Those routes are open but Josh has been looking for deep ball last few games not taking what defense is giving. Back to Rookie Josh 

That's been part of it!  The factors IB is talking about are changing all the time and vary from play to play.  How the D defends varies from play to play.  What Josh sees or decides to do varies from play to play.

 

I don't know how you can make a sweeping generality and say "we are bad at X" "we need to do more Y" etc...

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

2. Part of the throwing short is Gabe Davis is ineffective on anything other than go routes. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Davis's 2 highest (by far) ratings have come in fairly modest ADOT games.  It's not all go routes.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

49 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Davis's 2 highest (by far) ratings have come in fairly modest ADOT games.  It's not all go routes.  

He’s played 7 games.

 

4 of those games he’s been 3 catches and fewer and 40 yards or fewer.

 

If its not all go’s than what it, because the last two games it’s been 4 catches for 68 yards.

 

I was a huge Gabe Davis supporter, and have said that all last year that he should been playing over Emmanuel Sanders, but it’s been a lot of ankle excuses and low output games. 
 

The extra snaps have not translated. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

He’s played 7 games.

 

4 of those games he’s been 3 catches and fewer and 40 yards or fewer.

 

If its not all go’s than what it, because the last two games it’s been 4 catches for 68 yards.

 

I was a huge Gabe Davis supporter, and have said that all last year that he should been playing over Emmanuel Sanders, but it’s been a lot of ankle excuses and low output games. 
 

The extra snaps have not translated. 

tiu said he’s not effective because all he does is run go routes.  Not true

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

tiu said he’s not effective because all he does is run go routes.  Not true

Okay, fair enough.

 

When and how do we start to see some production ?

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Okay, fair enough.

 

When and how do we start to see some production ?

hive him more targets.  He’s #2 WR.  Dorsey is a numbskull

[Straight Hucklebuck]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

hive him more targets.  He’s #2 WR.  Dorsey is a numbskull

I want to see this offense settle down to some degree.

The Jets game felt frantic, Allen constantly moving, the pressure really getting to him, Dorsey constantly talking about rhythm when they don’t try to run the ball with their running backs.
 

Add some more conventional elements to the plan: motion, getting your Tight End involved over the middle, utilize some WR depth in Kumerow and Shakir to spell McKenzie. 
 

 

 

 

[nosejob]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

That is part of it. But that goes to play design. You don't need your TE to pass block if you are getting the ball out quick. He's too much of a receiving threat to keep in to block.

Well when he lines up behind the right guard and helps on the right side that gives Josh at least an extra second or 2 and fortunately we haven't seen Josh with an injury sooner from the right side rush.