are teams figuring out our new OC?

[Tommy Callahan]

I have heard folks from cover 1 to national reporters make off the cuff comments that we run a very simple O.

are teams figuring it out?  

[whorlnut]

No…the personnel just isn’t very good outside of Diggs. Davis and knox have been underwhelming and McKenzie sucks. 

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, Chris farley said:

I have heard folks from cover 1 to national reporters make off the cuff comments that we run a very simple O.

are teams figuring it out?  

 

Everything I have heard has contradicted that.  The O is supposedly complicated.

That doesn't mean that its "complicated" to stop it.  

 

I'm usually not one to overly criticize coaching, but I have for some time now been patiently waiting for Dorsey to expand the

offensive attack.  It seems to me in my layman's knowledge that it's quite one-dimensional.  When his scheme lines up with a team that

cannot deal with his gameplan it can overwhelm the defense and the Bills run away with the game.

 

However, it doesn't seem to me to be "game planned" specifically for the week's opponent.  The one thing I'm now wondering is

if Dorsey himself see this or is he more inclined to shove his scheme down every opponent's throat expecting to prevail.

 

One last thought I have is not about x's and o's.  I'm not sure if his "style" of being so intense is helping or hurting Josh's play.

Josh has had Daboll who we all know was a steadying force who wasn't afraid to criticize Josh when it was needed.

It may not mean a lot to others, but for me Daboll was more of a "wise" mentor along with being a coach and I think that it is

being missed some (if not more than some) in Josh's play this season.  I do have some fear that Josh and Dorsey are psyching

each other up a little too much and there is no Daboll to calm things down. 

[Nextmanup]

I find it incredibly difficult, as a fan, to make legitimate, accurate OC criticism.

 

There is too much we don't know about what leads up to a given play on the field.

 

Picture a terrible play design in a critical situation, and it doesn't work.

 

How do we know what play was actually called?  How do we know who did or did NOT do his job on the play?

Etc.

 

 

 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Chris farley said:

I have heard folks from cover 1 to national reporters make off the cuff comments that we run a very simple O.

are teams figuring it out?  

 

I think a bunch of national reporters don't know their ball.  The guys at Cover1 generally do know their ball.  I haven't heard them say this, so I'm not doubting you but I'd be interested in the context if you have it (what show, when, etc)

 

I think there's something to the idea that the offense has been "solved" a bit, but more than our new OC being figured out I think it's Josh's tendencies and preferences that have been figured out, combined with perhaps a physical "ding" that makes him less able to make those "you are double covered but I'm gonna complete to you anyway" in your face throws.

 

An example of what I mean is, it's on tape that when he's flushed from the pocket, Josh likes to throw across his body back to the middle of the field to Diggs or Davis.  So DBs are focused on that and jump it.  Or, that when he rolls R, he likes to throw along the sideline to Knox, so when he floats it in there the DB jumps it.  That is Josh operating off script and off platform.

 

I don't have the all 22 on the Jets game yet but in the Packers game, on key sets of downs, there appeared to be open options designed into the play which Josh was not taking.

 

16 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I find it incredibly difficult, as a fan, to make legitimate, accurate OC criticism.

There is too much we don't know about what leads up to a given play on the field.

Picture a terrible play design in a critical situation, and it doesn't work.

How do we know what play was actually called?  How do we know who did or did NOT do his job on the play?

 

All fair points and a reason I don't even attempt to assess why run plays didn't work for the most part.

 

But, when one looks at all 22 and can see two receivers who appear to be well separated from defenders after running a route and Josh throws back across his body to a guy who is well covered and has a DB in position to jump the route - I think a reasonable inference can be made.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Beck Water

[ColoradoBills]

13 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I find it incredibly difficult, as a fan, to make legitimate, accurate OC criticism.

 

There is too much we don't know about what leads up to a given play on the field.

 

Picture a terrible play design in a critical situation, and it doesn't work.

 

How do we know what play was actually called?  How do we know who did or did NOT do his job on the play?

Etc.

 

 

 

 

I can agree with your points, but one can ask a question about a brand new OC who is learning as he goes along.

The Bills playbook is huge, but which plays are called when is one of the toughest things for an OC to figure out.

Scheming against an opponent is a learned skill that all competent OCs must accomplish to be successful.

[Royale with Cheese]

This thread is created every year we have a slump.  

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

An example of what I mean is, it's on tape that when he's flushed from the pocket, Josh likes to throw across his body back to the middle of the field to Diggs or Davis.  So DBs are focused on that and jump it.  Or, that when he rolls R, he likes to throw along the sideline to Knox, so when he floats it in there the DB jumps it.  That is Josh operating off script and off platform.

 

I don't have the all 22 on the Jets game yet but in the Packers game, on key sets of downs, there appeared to be open options designed into the play which Josh was not taking.

 

I watched the All 22 of the Packers and seen the same thing.  Unfortunately, the same seemed to have happened yesterday.

I'm not taking anything away from Josh but he still is young and is not the willy vet QB sometimes we think he is.

Dorsey is young and inexperienced too.  I think some of the drives are stalling out because of that.

[somnus00]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I watched the All 22 of the Packers and seen the same thing.  Unfortunately, the same seemed to have happened yesterday.

I'm not taking anything away from Josh but he still is young and is not the willy vet QB sometimes we think he is.

Dorsey is young and inexperienced too.  I think some of the drives are stalling out because of that.

I haven't had a chance to go back, but that 4th quarter near-pick, it seemed like Allen was forcing it to Diggs when Shakir was open over the middle for a slightly shorter gain.

[ColoradoBills]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This thread is created every year we have a slump.  

 

But you have to acknowledge that the team has a new OC who has only called less than 2 handfuls of games.

So, I guess I would ask the question, is the OC important?

 

The thing about a slump can also be the reason they have to play in KC every year.  No one can tell me that the Jets D did not

have the answers against the Bills yesterday and nothing was changed when the DL pressured Josh almost every play.

I didn't see a lot of quick passes that the Bills shown they have done earlier in the season.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

But you have to acknowledge that the team has a new OC who has only called less than 2 handfuls of games.

So, I guess I would ask the question, is the OC important?

 

The thing about a slump can also be the reason they have to play in KC every year.  No one can tell me that the Jets D did not

have the answers against the Bills yesterday and nothing was changed when the DL pressured Josh almost every play.

I didn't see a lot of quick passes that the Bills shown they have done earlier in the season.

 

The OC is important.  We can have two good ones in a row right?

 

But every team goes through a slump...even the Chiefs.  They were 3-4 at one point last year and still got homefield.  

 

Allen wasn't pressured all day.  He had his opportunities but he's off right now.  He's been off since the 2nd half in GB.  He's going to get back on track like he does every year.  The important part is he gets back on track during the playoffs.  

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

I haven't had a chance to go back, but that 4th quarter near-pick, it seemed like Allen was forcing it to Diggs when Shakir was open over the middle for a slightly shorter gain.

 

I know what you mean.  It's a bit like Josh is blinded on too many plays.  I don't know why, and one would think that this will be

addressed when they go over the game film.

[K-9]

Not necessarily. It’s been known for a while that Josh likes to attack the longer developing intermediate and longer options first. Josh has been a bit stubborn in his reads expecting guys to get open as readily as we’ve seen previously and he’s being forced to go thru several reads before settling for the check down. This is a bigger issue vs. superior back sevens like we saw yesterday, especially when good coverage LBs like the Jets have can close so quickly on those check downs. Also, few OLs are gonna hold long enough to enable a QB to go thru all his progressions so frequently against the better fronts. Perhaps Dorsey and Josh need to read from the bottom up as opposed to the top down and be able hurt teams to make them adjust.
 

And yet, we were still in position to win games even when the opponent played their absolute best while we played our injury depleted worst. Can’t wait to play these guys again. 

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I watched the All 22 of the Packers and seen the same thing.  Unfortunately, the same seemed to have happened yesterday.

I'm not taking anything away from Josh but he still is young and is not the willy vet QB sometimes we think he is.

Dorsey is young and inexperienced too.  I think some of the drives are stalling out because of that.

 

I don't wanna go into psychoanalyzing or inferring personal relationships.

 

I have heard several comments from Cover1 guys that the playcalling from Dorsey seems to be better matched to the game situation and the defense.  Daboll's play calling puzzled me at times.

 

I do wonder if it's actually Dorsey as a steadying influence that's missed, not in terms of psychology but in terms of technique!  Keep in mind Dorsey was always on the sidelines with Josh the last few years while Daboll was up in the booth more isolated in terms of communication and proximity.  Dorsey could be the one who was steadying Josh after a dirt ball saying "OK, you're dropping your shoulder and overstepping, that's why the ball hit the dirt.  Focus on clean technique and the throws will follow".  I think the idea of Brady as QB coach was that Josh had grown past that need for a technician in his ear on the sideline, but maybe he hasn't.

[Beck Water]

27 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

I haven't had a chance to go back, but that 4th quarter near-pick, it seemed like Allen was forcing it to Diggs when Shakir was open over the middle for a slightly shorter gain.

 

Are you talking about 2nd and 14 from the buf 46 with 8:16 left in the 4th?  That's def. one I want to look at all-22 on.

Knox is an easy throw over the middle, completely open, and looks plausible to make it 3rd and 5 or so if he just makes the catch and dives forward, less if he gets to run a few steps.  Singletary (I think) is also wide open on the sideline and would have Knox as a lead blocker.

 

 

I actually thought that throw was intended for Shakir and he wasn't running the route as Josh expected - maybe he thought it was for Diggs - or Josh's throw was a bit off the mark.  That's actually a play I mistook as having Davis as the deep guy, and I mis-remembered it as an actual pick.   I think if it were intended for Diggs it was thrown short, but that could be.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Beck Water

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't wanna go into psychoanalyzing or inferring personal relationships.

 

I have heard several comments from Cover1 guys that the playcalling from Dorsey seems to be better matched to the game situation and the defense.  Daboll's play calling puzzled me at times.

 

I do wonder if it's actually Dorsey as a steadying influence that's missed, not in terms of psychology but in terms of technique!  Keep in mind Dorsey was always on the sidelines with Josh the last few years while Daboll was up in the booth more isolated in terms of communication and proximity.  Dorsey could be the one who was steadying Josh after a dirt ball saying "OK, you're dropping your shoulder and overstepping, that's why the ball hit the dirt.  Focus on clean technique and the throws will follow".  I think the idea of Brady as QB coach was that Josh had grown past that need for a technician in his ear on the sideline, but maybe he hasn't.

 

Good points on the technique stuff.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't want to be over critical on Dorsey and I'm not trying to use Psych 101.  That being said, it would be unreasonable

to assume that a brand-new OC, even one who has been on the team and knows the system can immediately have the traits of a more

seasoned coach.  Dorsey is wearing the crown now and it's got to be a lot tougher than sitting in the cheaper seats like he has in the past

and we occupy every week.

 

If any QB is in a slump a good share of the burden on "getting him right" would be on the OC's shoulders.  My hope is they can get

together and turn things positive again as quickly as possible.

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The OC is important.  We can have two good ones in a row right?

 

But every team goes through a slump...even the Chiefs.  They were 3-4 at one point last year and still got homefield.  

 

Allen wasn't pressured all day.  He had his opportunities but he's off right now.  He's been off since the 2nd half in GB.  He's going to get back on track like he does every year.  The important part is he gets back on track during the playoffs.  

 

Of course I believe that Dorsey can be a great OC.  He is inexperience though and it makes me believe that some of the offensive

issues could be his versus Josh can't throw anymore and the playmakers forgot how to catch a football.  I just think the whole

offensive team needs to get it right and Dorsey is a big part of that.

 

Dorsey does have a responsibility to give Josh plays to get him right again.  At least that's how I see it.

I'm glad the Vikings are in Orchard Park next Sunday.