4-2-5 Alignment

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

McDermott and Fraiser, when faced with adversity, almost ALWAYS double down on their philosophy.

 

They just don’t want to come out of that personnel grouping, and I don’t expect that to change.

Will they ever go away from Nickle? 

[brianthomas]

15 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Buffalos defense has allowed an average of 10.1 points in the 1st half of games which ranks 12th in the league. They’ve allowed an average of 3.9 in the second half which ranks 1st in the league. If that’s not being able to make adjustments then I don’t know what else to tell you.

Ah so you think our coaching staff is great at making adjustments then & theres nothing to improve? Well i admire your perception of things.

To me correlation is not causation.  We have countless examples discussed in these forums from the past couple seasons where we're not switching things up.  We have glaring examples from just the past couple games... today even. If u cant see that then i dont know what to tell you either lol.

 

The saving grace is we have a superstar QB & playmakers who can usually make enough plays to get a win, on both sides of the ball. But when defenses shut down Josh & u dont adjust thats an issue. If you're playing a 2nd year JETS QB coming off a meltdown vs the Pats, who isnt very threatening as a passer, perhaps you shouldnt be playing nickel all day, especially on critical drives when theyve ran 8 times in a row & you're having trouble stopping it. That seems like a good time to change it up just a little no?

 

Statistically our defense is great. But if you had 1 play where you needed your defense to step up & make a stop, would you pick ours as that defense? Last year obviously that was a no. Von Miller changed that equation a bit. Not today tho.... we just couldnt stop the run & didnt seem overly concerned about adjusting to do so either.

[All_Pro_Bills]

McD and Frazier are going to point to "execution" issues when they speak on Monday.  And in many ways, that's a valid argument.  There were countless missed tackles, bad angles, and missed gap assignments from start to finish.  But from a physical standpoint the base nickel can put you at a disadvantage against an offense going with a bigger personnel package. Especially when you miss so many tackles and run gap assignments.  Allowing that final Jets drive to move 90 yards down the field was just unacceptable.  Sure, the offense was putrid but at some time during the season and during the game your defense needs to step and take charge and they didn't do it here.

 

The coaches better figure it out fast.  With the Vikings and Browns on the schedule at home the next two weeks does anyone here expect those teams to do anything other than what the Packers and Jets have game planned against the Bills defense?  

Edited November 7, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[cwater10]

10 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

He's talking about the corners and safeties, not the Nickel, which is why I am asking why he believes the front 7 personnel dictates more or less run responsibility for those guys.

I think his point is that where as most teams have a "front 7", we don't.  We have a front 6 which at times like yesterday turns out to be a bad match up.  

 

Interesting to me that we hear endlessly from the offensive players and staff how they put such value in being "multiple", with infinite variations and personnel combinations.  Why is that not of value to the defense?

[MAJBobby]

8 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Will they ever go away from Nickle? 

Considering they are on of and have been one of the top defenses since McD has installed it. The answer is NOPE. 

[cage]

13 hours ago, Ralonzo said:

With an undersized Bernard it's more like a 4-1-6. I thought the fact that the Jets ran the ball with ease right down the field all 2nd half, missing their top RB and 2 top OL, might have been a hint to the staff that this might not be an optimal personnel grouping but what do I know, I'm just an internet.

I'm not sure why they didn't try 3 DTs when the Jets were backed up on their own 4 in the last quarter.  They should have been expecting heavy run and not trusting Wilson.  Settle+Jones+Phillips+Lawson may been a better shot at shutting them down deep in their own territory

 

[BarleyNY]

13 hours ago, Turf Toejam 34 said:

Just a thought---the lack of heavy back side personnel is going to cause injuries----Poyer---Hyde---etc.   

 

McD's defense puts a heavy load on non-LB's to support in run defense.    There is no doubt in my mind that this exposes both the CBs and safeties to play a larger role in run support and puts them in a position where they are putting themselves in situations to get injured.   

 

If the team is totally committed to this fact, then I'm okay with it, but it will mean that we will need a steady supply of replacements.   

The defense gave up 20. Even the last drive was only a FG. The Bills should win every (non-hurricane/severe blizzard) game if the D only gives up 20. This one was not on them. 

[thenorthremembers]

4-2-5 is a great alignment.   Works very well against spread offenses and puts a lot of speed on the field, which you need.     The Bills shouldnt come out of Nickel, its worked more than fine.  Even when there is a perceived issue against the run, the two teams that took advantage of it only scored 17 and 20 points respectively.   If you're worried about getting your smaller secondary players hurt, the defensive line needs to do its job and keep those players clean.  Thats why the Bills have spent so much money, time, and picks on the D-Line.   You need to be stout up front to run the 4-2-5.

 

The injuries have been an anomaly, not the norm for this regime. Bottom line, the Bills need to score more on offense.  

Edited November 7, 2022 by thenorthremembers

[HoofHearted]

10 hours ago, brianthomas said:

Ah so you think our coaching staff is great at making adjustments then & theres nothing to improve? Well i admire your perception of things.

To me correlation is not causation.  We have countless examples discussed in these forums from the past couple seasons where we're not switching things up.  We have glaring examples from just the past couple games... today even. If u cant see that then i dont know what to tell you either lol.

 

The saving grace is we have a superstar QB & playmakers who can usually make enough plays to get a win, on both sides of the ball. But when defenses shut down Josh & u dont adjust thats an issue. If you're playing a 2nd year JETS QB coming off a meltdown vs the Pats, who isnt very threatening as a passer, perhaps you shouldnt be playing nickel all day, especially on critical drives when theyve ran 8 times in a row & you're having trouble stopping it. That seems like a good time to change it up just a little no?

 

Statistically our defense is great. But if you had 1 play where you needed your defense to step up & make a stop, would you pick ours as that defense? Last year obviously that was a no. Von Miller changed that equation a bit. Not today tho.... we just couldnt stop the run & didnt seem overly concerned about adjusting to do so either.

 

I'll say it for the 100th time - Nickel personnel wasn't the issue on the final drive. Taron Johnson being in the game instead of another linebacker did not make a difference. The lapses came from mostly front 7 players on the defensive line. I can not make this any more clear.

[MAJBobby]

This is the Best Defense in the NFL, and people want to complain about it.  

 

I will say I dont like how much assets are spent into defense every year, but the results are there with it, they are the Top Defense in the league.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, cwater10 said:

I think his point is that where as most teams have a "front 7", we don't.  We have a front 6 which at times like yesterday turns out to be a bad match up.  

 

Interesting to me that we hear endlessly from the offensive players and staff how they put such value in being "multiple", with infinite variations and personnel combinations.  Why is that not of value to the defense?

We do have a front 7 - It's our defensive line, two linebackers, and our nickel. Guys, the box is determined by the call and the offensive formation!!! It doesn't matter what personnel you trot out there. If they give you true empty you're going to have a 5 man box regardless of personnel. Likewise if they give you an Ace set with two tight ends you'll get a 7 man box with potential to add more from the Safeties based on coverage. PERSONNEL GROUPINGS ARE NOT FORMATIONS!

[Southern Bills Fan]

I'm not an expert but it seems like at crunch time, against the Jets you would make Zach Wilson beat you. Not getting it run down your throat for about 10 yards a carry. 

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, cage said:

I'm not sure why they didn't try 3 DTs when the Jets were backed up on their own 4 in the last quarter.  They should have been expecting heavy run and not trusting Wilson.  Settle+Jones+Phillips+Lawson may been a better shot at shutting them down deep in their own territory

 

That play wasn't a personnel issue. It wasn't even a fit issue. It was a missed tackle issue.

[hondo in seattle]

15 hours ago, Turf Toejam 34 said:

Just a thought---the lack of heavy back side personnel is going to cause injuries----Poyer---Hyde---etc.   

 

McD's defense puts a heavy load on non-LB's to support in run defense.    There is no doubt in my mind that this exposes both the CBs and safeties to play a larger role in run support and puts them in a position where they are putting themselves in situations to get injured.   

 

If the team is totally committed to this fact, then I'm okay with it, but it will mean that we will need a steady supply of replacements.   

 

This is a good point.  The general trend of the NFL is more passing and less running.  It seems to me that McD and Frazier are the only coaches that have truly embraced the modern era.  Our statistical rankings since they arrived in Buffalo suggest they're on to something, though our vulnerability to power backs - and now maybe injuries - is concerning.  

 

Yesterday 4 our 5 best defensive players (Hyde, Power, Milano, White) didn't play due to injury.  It showed on the field.  

[Billever76]

14 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

You're exactly right though.  Sticking to the Nickel when the formation says run (and the Jets were running some big sets today) you are going to expose your DB's to have to engage lineman more often, which generally isn't a matchup you want to see.  Thus is Frazier though. No adjustments even when they are almost exclusively running the ball later in the game.

Having an extra LB in there rather than a smaller DB can make all the difference in the world when it comes to run defense.

 

Tell me why you would be playing a defensive scheme (nickel), which is designed to stop the pass, when the opposing offense has committed to running the ball and is pushing you down the field and the opposing QB is Zach Wilson?  Is Frazier really that scared of him?

Frazier is in over his head when it comes to stopping the run when teams commit to it imo....his defense is flawed bc he refuses to adapt....in the nfl it's not a one size fits all philosophy that will get you to a lombardi..coaches must be able to adapt and switch out of what's not working on the fly...Frazier needs to be fired after this season if we fail to win it all.....and McDermott needs to be on the hot seat..I fear our coaches have reached their peak and it's simply not good enough.....it's good and a consistent playoff team but not good enough to win it all

[Billz4ever]

9 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

McD and Frazier are going to point to "execution" issues when they speak on Monday.  And in many ways, that's a valid argument.  There were countless missed tackles, bad angles, and missed gap assignments from start to finish.  But from a physical standpoint the base nickel can put you at a disadvantage against an offense going with a bigger personnel package. Especially when you miss so many tackles and run gap assignments.  Allowing that final Jets drive to move 90 yards down the field was just unacceptable.  Sure, the offense was putrid but at some time during the season and during the game your defense needs to step and take charge and they didn't do it here.

 

The coaches better figure it out fast.  With the Vikings and Browns on the schedule at home the next two weeks does anyone here expect those teams to do anything other than what the Packers and Jets have game planned against the Bills defense?  

The Packers gift wrapped a game plan for the Jets and the Jets happily accepted and executed. Meanwhile, our coaching staff stands there dumbfounded as to how other teams are able to run against our Nickel. No adjustments mind you, simply standing there like statues sticking with the status quo like nothing's wrong. Neither GB or the Jets are great running teams either, but we sure made them look like they were.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Billz4ever