4-2-5 Alignment

[EmotionallyUnstable]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

They did play Klein with Edmunds and Milano at times last year.  Time to maybe dust that off 

I think those situations (Titans game?) were in games that they had prepared for it and knew it was likely something they’d need. I feel that on defense, if it isn’t part of the prep going into the game that week, they wouldn’t pivot to it mid-game. 

[Billz4ever]

54 minutes ago, Turf Toejam 34 said:

Just a thought---the lack of heavy back side personnel is going to cause injuries----Poyer---Hyde---etc.   

 

McD's defense puts a heavy load on non-LB's to support in run defense.    There is no doubt in my mind that this exposes both the CBs and safeties to play a larger role in run support and puts them in a position where they are putting themselves in situations to get injured.   

 

If the team is totally committed to this fact, then I'm okay with it, but it will mean that we will need a steady supply of replacements.   

You're exactly right though.  Sticking to the Nickel when the formation says run (and the Jets were running some big sets today) you are going to expose your DB's to have to engage lineman more often, which generally isn't a matchup you want to see.  Thus is Frazier though. No adjustments even when they are almost exclusively running the ball later in the game.

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

I want to know your thought process here. How does 4-2 personnel "put a more intense tackling penalty on our secondary" than 4-3 personnel?

Having an extra LB in there rather than a smaller DB can make all the difference in the world when it comes to run defense.

 

Tell me why you would be playing a defensive scheme (nickel), which is designed to stop the pass, when the opposing offense has committed to running the ball and is pushing you down the field and the opposing QB is Zach Wilson?  Is Frazier really that scared of him?

[Mango]

26 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

McDermott and Fraiser, when faced with adversity, almost ALWAYS double down on their philosophy.

 

They just don’t want to come out of that personnel grouping, and I don’t expect that to change.

We ran 3 LB sets last year with Klein at one point after a similar skid. But then ultimately went back to their base and we all started whining again.

 

Everything is built for the teams to play catch up against us. Which means we have to score wart and often. 2 bad days from Josh means two bad days from the defense. 

[Billz4ever]

7 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I think those situations (Titans game?) were in games that they had prepared for it and knew it was likely something they’d need. I feel that on defense, if it isn’t part of the prep going into the game that week, they wouldn’t pivot to it mid-game. 

The thing Frazier doesn't seem to understand though is there's a huge difference playing Nickel when your offense has given you a sizeable lead than playing Nickel in a close game like today.

 

In other games where the opposition was playing from behind, they typically abandon the run obviously for clock reasons.  Last week, GB was behind 3 scores, but said screw it, we're running anyway and they were gashing our Nickel D.  The Jets copied that today in a close game where they didn't have to abandon the run and we see what happened.  If Frazier cannot adjust, we will keep seeing this unfortunately.  

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Having an extra LB in there rather than a smaller DB can make all the difference in the world when it comes to run defense.

 

Tell me why you would be playing a defensive scheme (nickel), which is designed to stop the pass, when the opposing offense has committed to running the ball and is pushing you down the field and the opposing QB is Zach Wilson?  Is Frazier really that scared of him?

 

He's talking about the corners and safeties, not the Nickel, which is why I am asking why he believes the front 7 personnel dictates more or less run responsibility for those guys.

 

As far as our scheme - it's not "designed to stop the pass" - it's designed to put better athletes on the field. Our issue in the run game hasn't been with our Nickel getting mauled. Our issue has been our DL not commanding double teams the past two weeks or not even attempting to get hands on OL so that they can't free release to second level defenders. The notion that adding a single LB that weighs 20lbs. more but moves slower will solve the problems in the run game is absurd. I think people hear 4-3 personnel and assume that it's a "formation" like an offensive formation. That's not how defense works. Alignments are based on the call and what formation the offense comes out in.

[Billz4ever]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

He's talking about the corners and safeties, not the Nickel, which is why I am asking why he believes the front 7 personnel dictates more or less run responsibility for those guys.

 

As far as our scheme - it's not "designed to stop the pass" - it's designed to put better athletes on the field. Our issue in the run game hasn't been with our Nickel getting mauled. Our issue has been our DL not commanding double teams the past two weeks or not even attempting to get hands on OL so that they can't free release to second level defenders. The notion that adding a single LB that weighs 20lbs. more but moves slower will solve the problems in the run game is absurd. I think people hear 4-3 personnel and assume that it's a "formation" like an offensive formation. That's not how defense works. Alignments are based on the call and what formation the offense comes out in.

Disagree completely.  Extra DBs will never be a substitution for filling gaps and holes, which is what Lineman and LBs are trained to do at the point of attack.  That's just a plain and simple fact.  If you're getting ran on play after play and you refuse to bring in an extra lineman or backer, you're going to have a long day.

 

And the formations and personnel packages the Jets had in the game today, especially in the second half, they screamed run and late in the game they ran the ball almost exclusively with no adjustment by Frazier on Defense.

 

We were playing Zach Wilson, not Patrick Mahomes.

[Ralonzo]

30 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Bernard and Milano are the same size

 

Kinda like Andy Reid and Larry Allen are the same size.

[Simon]

10 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Disagree completely.

 

If you're disagreeing with that guy, you're even more wrong than you usually are. 

[Billz4ever]

Just now, Simon said:

 

If you're disagreeing with that guy, you're even more wrong than you usually are. 

Thanks for the wonderful insight.

[HoofHearted]

9 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Disagree completely.  Extra DBs will never be a substitution for filling gaps and holes, which is what Lineman and LBs are trained to do at the point of attack.  That's just a plain and simple fact.  If you're getting ran on play after play and you refuse to bring in an extra lineman or backer, you're going to have a long day.

 

And the formations and personnel packages the Jets had in the game today, especially in the second half, they screamed run and late in the game they ran the ball almost exclusively with no adjustment by Frazier on Defense.

 

We were playing Zach Wilson, not Patrick Mahomes.

By design our Nickels more often than not are force players. They are covered by a 3 and 5 technique so that they are not interior gap fitters. In other words they are protected. It’s no different than a Safety force coming down from 10 yards. Their job is to turn everything back inside to the big bodies. Safeties are C gap fitters in the run all the time. We just walk ours up instead of playing it from depth.

 

At the end of the day offensive run blocking schemes are designed to force DBs to make tackles. That has and always will be the case.

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

By design our Nickels more often than not are force players. They are covered by a 3 and 5 technique so that they are not interior gap fitters. In other words they are protected. It’s no different than a Safety force coming down from 10 yards. Their job is to turn everything back inside to the big bodies. Safeties are C gap fitters in the run all the time. We just walk ours up instead of playing it from depth.

 

At the end of the day offensive run blocking schemes are designed to force DBs to make tackles. That has and always will be the case.

I've legit never heard of the defensive philosophy that says if they are running on you with big personnel packages, the answer is to have more DBs on the field.  

 

Sounds like a great idea.  Guess we should start playing dime near the goal line.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Billz4ever

[HoofHearted]

8 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I've legit never heard of the defensive philosophy that says if they are running on you with big personnel packages, the answer is to have more DBs on the field.  

 

Sounds like a great idea.  Guess we should start playing dime near the goal line.

They didn’t though. They sat in 11 personnel the majority of the game.

[BananaB]

Blows my mind we played Zach Wilson  and we more worried about the pass then the run. Jets last drive was textbook of what happens to this D a couple times a year if our O can’t put up points.  

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

They didn’t though. They sat in 11 personnel the majority of the game.

The long drive that started at the 4 where I think they ran all but 1 play, what's the purpose of nickel there?

 

 

[Since1981]

2 minutes ago, BananaB said:

what happens to this D

Von was in shock packers kept on ground. If offense can’t get ahead, then D gets exposed. And weirdly even packers STILL ran (late and behind) but they saw it too. 

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, Turf Toejam 34 said:

Just a thought---the lack of heavy back side personnel is going to cause injuries----Poyer---Hyde---etc.   

 

McD's defense puts a heavy load on non-LB's to support in run defense.    There is no doubt in my mind that this exposes both the CBs and safeties to play a larger role in run support and puts them in a position where they are putting themselves in situations to get injured.   

 

If the team is totally committed to this fact, then I'm okay with it, but it will mean that we will need a steady supply of replacements.   

 

ok.. they've played this for years now and didn't have the injuries. We've had Defensive line and Offensive line getting line and neither of them are making tackles in the running game so what's getting them hurt? 

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

The long drive that started at the 4 where I think they ran all but 1 play, what's the purpose of nickel there?

 

 

Go to the Edmunds thread where I broke every one of those big plays down. The majority of the issues were missed tackles/fits by box players at the line of scrimmage. Taron Johnson wasn’t the problem.

Edited November 7, 2022 by HoofHearted

[brianthomas]

I understand our philosophy & its successful when executed well. I'm more concerned about the lack of in-game adjustments.

We're slow to adjust game in/game out & its a bit of a headscratcher, and on both sides of the ball.

I'd think that the best coaches constantly adapt to the changing environment, not only to the plays themselves on the field but to the players as well.

Much has been said about Sean McVay & his halftime adjustments.

Our coaches are constantly panned as being some of the best too.

They deserve a lot of credit, but a lot of criticism as well.

Its time to see some of that top tier coaching & not just rely on Josh pulling the W out of his arse every week. Dude cant do it alone

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, brianthomas said:

I understand our philosophy & its successful when executed well. I'm more concerned about the lack of in-game adjustments.

We're slow to adjust game in/game out & its a bit of a headscratcher, and on both sides of the ball.

I'd think that the best coaches constantly adapt to the changing environment, not only to the plays themselves on the field but to the players as well.

Much has been said about Sean McVay & his halftime adjustments.

Our coaches are constantly panned as being some of the best too.

They deserve a lot of credit, but a lot of criticism as well.

Its time to see some of that top tier coaching & not just rely on Josh pulling the W out of his arse every week. Dude cant do it alone

Buffalos defense has allowed an average of 10.1 points in the 1st half of games which ranks 12th in the league. They’ve allowed an average of 3.9 in the second half which ranks 1st in the league. If that’s not being able to make adjustments then I don’t know what else to tell you.

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

We ran 3 LB sets last year with Klein at one point after a similar skid. But then ultimately went back to their base and we all started whining again.

 

Everything is built for the teams to play catch up against us. Which means we have to score wart and often. 2 bad days from Josh means two bad days from the defense. 

 

not a sustainable method.  you need to be able to pivot in game.  That way if Josh is off in a playoff game you can still win.