WR2/SLOT & Allen/Dorsey

[Beck Water]

13 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

The throw on the 2nd interception was to Gabe Davis. Shakir was playing on the outside on the opposite side of the play. 

 

Just went back and looked.  Mea culpa, you're right, and I'm not sure WTF Josh was seeing on that play.

 

Someone mentioned there was a third play that was a near-interception that may be what I was thinking of. 

[97bills]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

Not sure why the coaching staff wouldn’t trust Shakir. All he’s done is make plays when given the chance. Perhaps they’re hoping Crowder comes back soon

McDermott does this to every rookie it’s head scratching. While every other team gets production out of there rookies. He can’t be worse then McKenzie. 

[BananaB]

39 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Dude.  1 for 4 in the last 2 games.  Not open on some of his snaps.  Possibly miscommunication responsible for Pick #2.

 

Again, I like Shakir, I think he has a high ceiling and I expect him to work hard and reach it, but people have this fixation with praising him (and now Hines) and dunking on McKenzie that's all out of sync with factual in-game observations and performance.

 

Pick 2 the ball was to Gabe and he went outside instead of in. 
 

Every one besides Diggs is out of sync with Allen. Shakir has showed he can make plays but he’s rarely on the field. Davis and McKenzie have showed they ain’t the answers with a lot more time on the field. Best bet is to have Shakir take snaps from McKenzie and try to get him a little rhythm with Allen. The Os best game this season was when he played slot

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

If someone doesn’t believe this is worthy of its own thread, feel free to merge. 
 

A lot of talk about the passing game and Allen/Dorsey. 
 

We have no move the chain passing game.   How many teams do you see out there, with functioning offenses, that don’t have a slot or tight end to move the chains?

 

Dorsey is calling games like Madden.  Deep shots or check downs to RB’s.  
 

Why?  Is Dorsey a 15 year old with an XBox?  Did Allen forget how to throw short/intermediate?  
 

(Hopefully) No and No.  I know this because Allen will throw chain movers to Diggs. 
 

The loss of a Cole Beasley type safety blanket looms large, it seems. 
 

Davis is a deep threat who has not shown a development into WR2 route tree capability.  
 

Knox has been blocking, a lot, and also has been going through the loss of his brother. 
 

Shakir is a rookie and they don’t trust him yet.  
 

McKenzie is not a full time slot WR.  Experiment failed. Halfway through the season.  Big enough sample size, and I’m of the impression Allen doesn’t trust him on hot/tight routes. 
 

Allen didn’t forget how to throw chain movers.  I don’t think Dorsey is an idiotic Madden play caller.  
 

We. Don’t. Have. The. Dudes.  
 

We weren’t coughing up picks for Claypool or Cooks, so we traded a pick for a RB that Beane talked about as a slot WR in his presser. 
 

Teams have keyed on Diggs and Davis. Bracket Diggs and put your CB1 on Davis.   They know we don’t have a running game that we’ll stick with, and nobody is currently worried about McKenzie, Knox, Shakir or a RB. 
 

We have a Jimmy’s and Joe’s problem right now more than an X’s and O’s one. 
 

Great summary and 100% agree.

 

And we’ve been exposed enough by Miami and the Jets to see the flaws.

 

Right Tackle is a mess. 
 

Today, Allen was moving around constantly, no rhythm, leaving the pocket, trying to create, pressing, under thrown passes. 

 

I’m about done with “don’t trust” or “not good at it” narratives.

 

Singletary is fine running the ball, +4.5 yards per carry. 12-15 carries is not too much.

 

Get James Cook more involved. All we hear is he’s a rookie, we can’t trust him, too much on his plate. It’s insane, guy was a 2nd Round pick playing RB, not orchestrating the offense.

 

Where is Khalil Shakir and why is he not out there? He’s worthy of trust late against Baltimore, Allen throws into triple coverage against Pittsburgh, but now? Nope he can’t be trusted.

 

Gabe Davis is completely ineffective on anything other than a go-route. 
 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Straight Hucklebuck

[SCBills]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Great summary and 100% agree.

 

And we’ve been exposed enough by Miami and the Jets to see the flaws.

 

Right Tackle is a mess. 
 

Today, Allen was moving around constantly, no rhythm, leaving the pocket, trying to create, pressing, under thrown passes. 

 

I’m about done with “don’t trust” or “not good at it” narratives.

 

Singletary is fine running the ball, +4.5 yards per carry. 12-15 carries is not too much.

 

Get James Cook more involved. All we hear is he’s a rookie, we can’t trust him, too much on his plate. It’s insane, guy was a 2nd Round pick playing RB, not orchestrating the offense.

 

Where is Khalil Shakir and why is he not out there? He’s worthy of trust late against Baltimore, Allen throws into triple coverage against Pittaburgh, but now? Nope he can’t be trusted.

 

Gabe Davis is completely ineffective on anything other than a go-route. 

 

 

Well said.   Take OBJ out of the equation. 
 

Shakir should be given every opportunity to win the slot role, and let’s see what Cook/Hines give us as RB/Slot. 
 

The McKenzie experiment didn’t work.  Let him go back to the gadget role. 

[Motor26]

5 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Well said.   Take OBJ out of the equation. 
 

Shakir should be given every opportunity to win the slot role, and let’s see what Cook/Hines give us as RB/Slot. 
 

The McKenzie experiment didn’t work.  Let him go back to the gadget role. 

 

Why take OBJ out of the equation? He could be the answer to the reason you started this thread. 

[SCBills]

Just now, Motor26 said:

 

Why take OBJ out of the equation? He could be the answer to the reason you started this thread. 

He could, and should. 
 

Im saying if we’re operating in a world where he’s not a Bill. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Well said.   Take OBJ out of the equation. 
 

Shakir should be given every opportunity to win the slot role, and let’s see what Cook/Hines give us as RB/Slot. 
 

The McKenzie experiment didn’t work.  Let him go back to the gadget role. 

Gabe Davis is hurting this offense.

 

He’s been a no-show in all but two games this season. 
 

I said this in the post-game, but everything with the Bills feels like Allen has to run around to escape real or perceived pressure, and him tossing dying footballs to the sidelines for miracle toe tap catches.

 

Those seem to be the only plays Dawson Knox is involved in, Josh Allen scramble drill, throw almost out

of bounds, Knox diving to catch.

 

Like you said, nothing in the middle of the field, no commitment to the run game.

 

WGR has been allergic to any talk of running the ball for 3 years. But it does put all weight on Allen to do everything, mostly him running out of the pocket and making dime throws.

 

 

[BananaB]

14 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Gabe Davis is hurting this offense.

 

He’s been a no-show in all but two games this season. 
 

I said this in the post-game, but everything with the Bills feels like Allen has to run around to escape real or perceived pressure, and him tossing dying footballs to the sidelines for miracle toe tap catches.

 

Those seem to be the only plays Dawson Knox is involved in, Josh Allen scramble drill, throw almost out

of bounds, Knox diving to catch.

 

Like you said, nothing in the middle of the field, no commitment to the run game.

 

WGR has been allergic to any talk of running the ball for 3 years. But it does put all weight on Allen to do everything, mostly him running out of the pocket and making dime throws.

 

 

Gabes a problem right now but I think more of the problem is in the slot. Our #2 never really lit it up the past couple years but Beas was always a great security blanket for Allen. Right now Allen is dishing it off to RBs more then he ever did in the past. 
 

No team in the league is more dependant on one player then the Bills are of Allen. This season he has played phenomenal for the most part, but if teams slow him down we just don’t have the playmakers that will take the weight off his shoulders

 

That game against Pitt Shakir was getting open downfield which is something McKensie hasn’t done all season long. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by BananaB

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Just went back and looked.  Mea culpa, you're right, and I'm not sure WTF Josh was seeing on that play.

 

Someone mentioned there was a third play that was a near-interception that may be what I was thinking of. 

 

Davis is not where Josh expected him (not necessarily a shot on Davis, Josh could have misread it as well)

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Gabes a problem right now but I think more of the problem is in the slot. Our #2 never really lit it up the past couple years but Beas was always a great security blanket for Allen. Right now Allen is dishing it off to RBs more then he ever did in the past. 
 

No team in the league is more dependant on one player then the Bills are of Allen. This season he has played phenomenal for the most part, but if teams slow him down we just don’t have the playmakers that will take the weight off his shoulders

 

That game against Pitt Shakir was getting open downfield which is something McKensie hasn’t done all season long. 

This.  
 

Davis is what he is.  He’s not a #2.   He’s a big play deep threat. Elite #3. 
 

We have garbage production out of the slot right now.  Slot has been huge in our offensive evolution with Allen and it’s a glaring weakness. 
 

Hines in the Ekeler role is an option.  Giving Shakir the chance to win the spot is another.  And, of course, we can sign OBJ. 
 

 

[BananaB]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

This.  
 

Davis is what he is.  He’s not a #2.   He’s a big play deep threat. Elite #3. 
 

We have garbage production out of the slot right now.  Slot has been huge in our offensive evolution with Allen and it’s a glaring weakness. 
 

Hines in the Ekeler role is an option.  Giving Shakir the chance to win the spot is another.  And, of course, we can sign OBJ. 
 

 

The offense looked the best it has all year with Shakir playing the slot. Sure it was against Pitt but he looked more like a natural WR then McKenzie. Didn’t need gadgets plays to get him involved with the O. Got separation down field and made a huge catch in triple coverage. 

[LABILLBACKER]

Some of my observations include:

 

We don't have a safety valve slot guy like Beasley. I see this as McKenzie's last year. 

 

Why we don't trust Shakir more in routes is an anomaly?

 

Why Knox is basically just a blocker is ridiculous. 

 

Davis has been way too inconsistent for a WR2 looking for a 2nd contract. 

 

So that leaves us with Josh going to Diggs 50+% of the time or dumpoffs.  With our mediocre OL this is not sustainable. 

Maybe Hines & OBJ can swoop in and save the day?

 

[Buffarukus]

3 hours ago, Process said:

That's a lot of words to say what we've known for 10 months....this team desperately needs to upgrade at WR. Beane chose to do nothing about it in the off-season. Hopefully he'll do something about it now and sign OBJ.

 

we did? what was the moment you thought we needed a wr 10 months ago? gabe seemed to take advantage of every opportunity prev seasons and had a career setting game the last time we saw him. im not sure what happening this year. yes hes #2 and getting more attention but hes missing alot of balls right in his hands and not attacking contested balls. spectacular one play and horrible the next. guy has all the tools but can't stay consistent. 

 

i rolled my eyes at the obj talk but yeah...ill take him in a heartbeat at this point.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Buffarukus

[Beck Water]

20 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Gabes a problem right now but I think more of the problem is in the slot. Our #2 never really lit it up the past couple years but Beas was always a great security blanket for Allen. Right now Allen is dishing it off to RBs more then he ever did in the past. 
 

No team in the league is more dependant on one player then the Bills are of Allen. This season he has played phenomenal for the most part, but if teams slow him down we just don’t have the playmakers that will take the weight off his shoulders

 

That game against Pitt Shakir was getting open downfield which is something McKensie hasn’t done all season long. 

 

Just to point out a fact, that our #2 last year and the year before was actually quite productive.  

Last year, Manny Sands (77%) and Gabe Davis (50%) effectively platooned at #2, with Sanders taking the snaps early in the season then missing time while Davis took them later in the season - about 25% overlap in snaps..

 

Sanders contributed 3 receptions and 45 yds per game, which is more than Beasley’s 43 yds per game so by any metric more production from #2 than slot

Davis contributed 2 receptions and 34 yds per game - IF you want to consider him as platooning, between the two of them they contributed about 4 receptions and 60 yds/game as #2 

 

In 2020, I think it would be a fair assessment to say Beasley was more productive in the slot than Brown/Davis at #2 - he was contributing 5-6 receptions and 64-65 yds/game

 

Thing is, Gabe Davis is contributing 3 receptions and an average of 70 yards per game, which some would consider “lighting it up”

 

All that said, I do think you’re on to something but it’s not quite the “lit it up” at #2 issue.  

 

It’s the first downs.  

 

Someone else pointed out - not sure who it was, and I didn’t entirely buy it at the time - Gabe Davis is making long receptions but not contributing over the middle, even though he’s been open and targeted there at times.  

 

It’s not just the slot.   Last season we were getting about 2 first downs/ game from Knox as well.  Davis is contributing about as many 1D as he did last season, but not the higher volume expected of the #2.   And yeah, the slot platoon of McKenzie/Crowder or McKenzie/Shakir is actually contributing about the same 1D as Beas did last year but that was a significant drop-off from the previous year.

 

Bottom line our receiving corps of Diggs/Davis/slot platoon/Knox is just not sustaining drives with 1D and finishing drives as well as last year, despite high offensive yards

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, Process said:

That's a lot of words to say what we've known for 10 months....this team desperately needs to upgrade at WR. Beane chose to do nothing about it in the off-season. Hopefully he'll do something about it now and sign OBJ.

 

Games like this week and even last week likely will mean Beane is more willing to pay more to sign OBJ than he might have a month ago asshows we need another playmaker.  The only problem is can they have him active for the Vikings game?

[Beck Water]

44 minutes ago, BananaB said:

The offense looked the best it has all year with Shakir playing the slot. Sure it was against Pitt but he looked more like a natural WR then McKenzie. Didn’t need gadgets plays to get him involved with the O. Got separation down field and made a huge catch in triple coverage. 

 

Um…I don’t wanna rain on your parade, and yes, Shakir runs very smooth-looking routes and seems to have good soft hands.  But were his 3 receptions vs Pittsburg actually playing from the slot?

 

And since then, he’s had an average of 16 snaps per game, resulting in 2 targets per game and 1 reception (total).  So where’s his separation and his involvement?  I promise, the Bills aren’t making him stay in the backfield and block.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Beck Water

[RyanC883]

3 hours ago, Process said:

That's a lot of words to say what we've known for 10 months....this team desperately needs to upgrade at WR. Beane chose to do nothing about it in the off-season. Hopefully he'll do something about it now and sign OBJ.

 

Bean screwed the offense and is seemingly wasting another year of JA.  Did not get aggressive for CMC, did not upgrade the OL, did not get an actual No. 2 WR.  Hope was the strategy there that Davis would become that guy.  He’s not. He is a good downfield No. 3 who might become that guy.  

[Beck Water]

Just now, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Games like this week and even last week likely will mean Beane is more willing to pay more to sign OBJ than he might have a month ago asshows we need another playmaker.  The only problem is can they have him active for the Vikings game?

 

OBJ had ACL surgery in February.  

Tre White had ACL surgery in mid-Dec and we’re just now looking at activating him.

 

No, we’re not going to sign OBJ and have him active for the Vikings game.  He’s not gonna be ready to be active until late Nov/mid Dec.

 

So we better sort it out with the guys we got now.

[RyanC883]

44 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Some of my observations include:

 

We don't have a safety valve slot guy like Beasley. I see this as McKenzie's last year. 

 

Why we don't trust Shakir more in routes is an anomaly?

 

Why Knox is basically just a blocker is ridiculous. 

 

Davis has been way too inconsistent for a WR2 looking for a 2nd contract. 

 

So that leaves us with Josh going to Diggs 50+% of the time or dumpoffs.  With our mediocre OL this is not sustainable. 

Maybe Hines & OBJ can swoop in and save the day?

 

 

a lot of the things that make no sense (Knox and Shakir usage, and I’ll throw in TE Morris usage) I would love someone to ask McD about because it is mind boggling.  

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OBJ had ACL surgery in February.  

Tre White had ACL surgery in mid-Dec and we’re just now looking at activating him.

 

No, we’re not going to sign OBJ and have him active for the Vikings game.  He’s not gonna be ready to be active until late Nov/mid Dec.

 

So we better sort it out with the guys we got now.

 

we do need to sort it out now for sure, and its nuts seeing the same stuff every week.