Ray Guy, Greatest Punter, Ever dies

[dwight in philly]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Me too!   Frank Ryan, the professor, to Gary Collins for three TDs in the NFL championship game, plus three punts for a 44-yard average.   I wanted to be Gary Collins, but I couldn't kick. 

Yep.. Ken Coleman , play by play, Warren Lahr color.. good old days! Bills on at 3-30.. if on the road.., 

[Olliemets]

My 28 year old son on Ray Guy a few years ago

"No punter is good enough that he should be in the HOF. Punters are a dime a dozen"

 

I countered that the game was somewhat different in the 70s and that if you were to watch the Raiders and NFL Foorball games at that time, you'd realize just what a weapon Ray Guy was. Talk about flipping the field. He turned the momentum around in games I watched  more than a few times. RIP Ray

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, dwight in philly said:

Yep.. Ken Coleman , play by play, Warren Lahr color.. good old days! Bills on at 3-30.. if on the road.., 

I first came to Connecticut in 1965, and the next season Coleman began broadcasting the Red Sox.   That familiar voice made me a Red Sox fan.  

[msw2112]

4 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Not to be insensitive, but was Guy sick?  He looks really gaunt and much older than 73.  Phil looks great.  Regardless, RIP Ray, an all-time great.

 

[clayboy54]

Ray Guy wouldn’t have been the best NFL punter ever if Matt Araiza had just been able to keep his fly zipped up.

[dwight in philly]

47 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I first came to Connecticut in 1965, and the next season Coleman began broadcasting the Red Sox.   That familiar voice made me a Red Sox fan.  

I never realized till  later on that he was the Red Sox broadcaster and more famous for that.. They dont make them like that anymore! 

[T&C]

Well worth the watch... with a little Madden too:

 

 

 

[WotAGuy]

Thanks to those that provided the history lessons in this thread. Very interesting stuff. 
 

I think it was on Twitter recently I saw some highlights of the Bisons-49ers from 1946. Very different game back then. Even the ball looked different - fatter. Here’s some highlights set to improvisational jazz. Go to the 29:00 mark and see (in color!) the unis the Bisons wore.  Horrible. Same for their passing game. 🤣
 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by WotAGuy

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Cool.  

Never heard of him.  Looked him up.  He was drafted as a placekicker/punter, not a pure punter.  

 

He had an unbelievably horrible life story.   All state QB in high school in Kansas.   Went to Arkansas to replace Joe Ferguson.  Turned into a punter-placekicker when he couldn't cut it at QB.   Was outstanding in college, drafted in the first round.  In the NFL he was horrible - one bad season punting and two bad seasons placekicking.  Hours after his release after three seasons, he was in a one-car accident, became a paraplegic, and died in hospice care at age 43.   Tragic.   

Ethan, if you read the rest of the thread, you'll see that Baugh punted in the era of the quick kick, which meant that at least sometimes, and sometimes even several times in a game, he punted from essentially the shotgun on third down with no return man dropped deep.   So, (1) he had a 10-yard advantage on those punts, (2) he didn't need hang time, because there would be no return, and (3) he got the benefit of the ball bouncing and rolling downfield, because there was no one back there to pick it up.  Punting that way is great for your net yards.  

Thanks for the insight.  I'd agree with your logic but I have no info one way or the other on how often they did the quick kick and how effective it was.  A net over 40 yards still seems impressive.  As you said there would not be a designated returner deep but there would be nothing stopping a defender from picking up the ball and running with it.  No idea how often if ever that occurred.  As for technique, seems to me the punter standing still and getting to take a full step and leg kick would have the advantage over a player closer to the LOS who was potentially moving laterally.  The roll could be significant as you stated.  As it stands if this was common place and I will take your word for it that it was, it seems Baugh was the best of his era as there are no other guys listed from that era.  

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

As it stands if this was common place and I will take your word for it that it was, it seems Baugh was the best of his era as there are no other guys listed from that era.  

I'm just talking about whether it really is so amazing that Baugh's punting average record stood so long.  There were reasons.  But as a player, by all accounts he was a special, special player in that game.  Obviously, I never saw Baugh play.  On TV occasionally when I was young I saw highlights of him in his prime.  He stood out, completely.  Fast, tough, really athletic, could run in the open field, and could throw.  And, he was the best punter on the team, by far, at a time when punting was much more important than today.    Not that he could survive in the modern NFL, but in his time he was dominant.   Like Jim Brown later was dominant in his time.   

[Shaw66]

16 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

Thanks to those that provided the history lessons in this thread. Very interesting stuff. 
 

I think it was on Twitter recently I saw some highlights of the Bisons-49ers from 1946. Very different game back then. Even the ball looked different - fatter. Here’s some highlights set to improvisational jazz. Go to the 29:00 mark and see (in color!) the unis the Bisons wore.  Horrible. Same for their passing game. 🤣
 

 

The ball didn't just look fatter - it WAS fatter.   Football, after all, evolved out of soccer and rugby somehow, I suppose.   In the really early days the ball was more like a rugby ball.  It wasn't at all easy to pass it, because it was hard to hold in one hand and because it wasn't nearly as aerodynamic as a well-throw modern football.   Some guys started passing, anyway, and as people recognized that the game was more interesting with some passing, they began reshaping the ball to make it easier to throw.   Baugh never could put up the numbers that modern passers get, simply because the ball was so much harder to throw. 

 

@Logic, jump in here.   You read the book.   What was the ball like when Baugh played?

Edited November 4, 2022 by Shaw66

[CowgirlsFan]

RIP

 

Thank you for the memories.

 

[The Frankish Reich]

11 hours ago, Logic said:

I've been reading "How Football Became Football" by Timothy P Brown -- I highly recommend it. It traces football from its creation by ivy league schools in the late 1800s through the modern day, tracking all of the evolutions in rules, equipment, playing styles, personnel, etc. Aaaanyway....

I was surprised to learn that in its first 30 or so years, football was much more of a kicking game. Field position was king. Gaining yards was a slog, so teams often punted after 2nd or 3rd down. Punters used to be get the national acclaim and newspaper writeups that QBs get today. It was not uncommon to see tense, back-and-forth punting battles with a 3-0 final score.

Anyway, I guess this is sort of off topic, since Guy punted many years later. Hearing you describe him as a weapon made me think back to the inception of football, when punters really WERE the pre-eminent weapons. 

At any rate, anyone interested in how football evolved should pick this book up. Great stuff.
 

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to check that out!

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

19 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

He was only 72!  Kind of young to go these days.

 

Long-time smoker.

[Shaw66]

16 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

Thanks to those that provided the history lessons in this thread. Very interesting stuff. 
 

I think it was on Twitter recently I saw some highlights of the Bisons-49ers from 1946. Very different game back then. Even the ball looked different - fatter. Here’s some highlights set to improvisational jazz. Go to the 29:00 mark and see (in color!) the unis the Bisons wore.  Horrible. Same for their passing game. 🤣
 

 

I watched some of this.  If you get into the actual game highlights, which is maybe 10 minutes in or so, Bisons (Bills) versus the Brookyn, you can see the difference between the single-wing (Brooklyn) and the T-formation (Bisons).  The Bisons ran a straight T-formation - two tight ends, fullback behind the QB and a halfback on either side of the fullback.  Sometimes they put a halfback in motion.  Brooklyn ran a single-wing variation (I never learned all the intricacies), but you can see that the guy who takes the direct snap is maybe six yards deep with a couple of backs in front of him on either side.  It's a perfect punt formation for a quick kick - two personal protectors in case anyone breaks through the line quickly.  Take the snap, take a step, kick it, and watch it roll down the field as ends run down field like gunners in case the receiving team has any notion of picking up the ball.  Great for the punter's gross and net average. 

 

As more teams ran the straight T, they figured out they could split one of the ends out wide - the first wideout.  And by the mid-50s they realized they didn't need two halfbacks, so they flanked one out to the other side.   Tight end was typically on the right side (strong side), flanker on the left.   It wasn't until the 60s that someone (Raiders or Oilers, I think) figured out you could put both wideouts on the same side and really confuse the defense.  And they started putting the tight end on the left once in a while.   It wasn't long before we had Air Coryell, and that's when the game really broke loose.  

[Logic]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

@Logic, jump in here.   You read the book.   What was the ball like when Baugh played?

I don't have the book here in front of me at work, but there are a few helpful websites.

"The National Football League (NFL) was established in 1920. The newly formed National Football League shortened the ball’s length to about 11 inches, the size and shape still used today. Officially, the shape is known as a 'prolate spheroid.'

It experimented with footballs for two decades until it found a reliable manufacturer, the Wilson Sporting Goods Co., in 1941. Wilson made its footballs with high-quality pebble cowhide and hand-sewed each one with lock-stitch seams, which set its product firmly apart from any other before it.

Players quickly took a liking to Wilson's football, nicknaming it 'The Duke' after Wellington Mara, the son of New York Giants owner Tim Mara. The two organizations have been business partners ever since, and the handmade production process continues today."


https://scoutlife.org/features/151034/how-the-football-has-changed-since-1869/



1874: 




1906:



1920:




1935



1941:






As to your question...based on the following article by Robert Klemko, it seems that the ball may have been 22 1/12 inches in circumference when Baugh started. It is 21 1/4 inches today. The AFL's skinnier J5-V football by Spalding, which was easier to throw, played a role in this evolution.

So it seems the ball of Baugh's day WAS more round by 1 1/4 inches.

"In 1912 the all-important circumference was defined and reduced to 22 1/2 inches. Still, it took several decades until long-fingered pioneer quarterbacks like Sammy Baugh came along and redefined throwing accuracy. (At his first NFL practice in ’37, Baugh was challenged to hit a Washington receiver in the eye. Baugh asked, "Which eye?"). With the early success of ‘Slingin Sammy’ and a long line of others, the ball grew ever svelte, eventually reaching the 21 1/4 inches mandated by the NFL today."

https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/06/17/nfl-history-in-95-objects-skinny-afl-football-spalding-j5v

 

 

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don't have the book here in front of me at work, but there are a few helpful websites.

"The National Football League (NFL) was established in 1920. The newly formed National Football League shortened the ball’s length to about 11 inches, the size and shape still used today. Officially, the shape is known as a 'prolate spheroid.'

It experimented with footballs for two decades until it found a reliable manufacturer, the Wilson Sporting Goods Co., in 1941. Wilson made its footballs with high-quality pebble cowhide and hand-sewed each one with lock-stitch seams, which set its product firmly apart from any other before it.

Players quickly took a liking to Wilson's football, nicknaming it 'The Duke' after Wellington Mara, the son of New York Giants owner Tim Mara. The two organizations have been business partners ever since, and the handmade production process continues today."


https://scoutlife.org/features/151034/how-the-football-has-changed-since-1869/



1874: 




1906:



1920:




1935



1941:






As to your question...based on the following article by Robert Klemko, it seems that the ball may have been 22 1/12 inches in circumference when Baugh started. It is 21 1/4 inches today. The AFL's skinnier J5-V football by Spalding, which was easier to throw, played a role in this evolution.

So it seems the ball of Baugh's day WAS more round by 1 1/4 inches.

"In 1912 the all-important circumference was defined and reduced to 22 1/2 inches. Still, it took several decades until long-fingered pioneer quarterbacks like Sammy Baugh came along and redefined throwing accuracy. (At his first NFL practice in ’37, Baugh was challenged to hit a Washington receiver in the eye. Baugh asked, "Which eye?"). With the early success of ‘Slingin Sammy’ and a long line of others, the ball grew ever svelte, eventually reaching the 21 1/4 inches mandated by the NFL today."

https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/06/17/nfl-history-in-95-objects-skinny-afl-football-spalding-j5v

 

 

Thanks.  When I was about 14, I saved up and bought the Duke.  Cost maybe twice as much as other leather or rubber balls.  I was in high demand for touch football games after that.  

[jaybee]

On 11/3/2022 at 12:00 PM, Shaw66 said:

In terms of pure stats, I'm sure that Ray Guy's numbers no longer stand out.  But measured against his era, he was indeed the greatest punter ever. 

 

He was taken in the first round, maybe the only punter ever taken in the first round.  He could put the ball wherever you wanted it.  He could hit the coffin corner.  He could get hang time.  He could hit line drives over the return man's head.  He could run, and he could pass.   We all loved Moorman, because he was a weapon.  Ray Guy was a much better weapon.   He was dominant.  

 

Of course, teams scored less and punted more in those days, and punters were more important than they are today.  In the field-position-game that they played back then, he was one of the most valuable players in the league.  

Yea man.  I was just a kid but liked the Raiders back then.  He was amazing with his placement of punts.   I Had his football card.  My brother stole my collection which had ALL the great players of the 60's and 70's. 

 

Another punter I always admired was Reggie Robie (sp?).  The Dolphins punter who always knew what time it was !!  (he wore a watch on game days).  It was all leg with Robie as his other foot never left the ground when he launched the missile.

 

Good times.  RIP Mr Guy.  Thanks for the great memories. 

[HOUSE]

Ray Guy was my best argument on WHY  Steve Tasker belongs in the NFL Hall of Fame. 

Some say special team players don't belong there but Ray Guy is.

 

RIP, GREAT PLAYER

[Buffalo716]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks.  When I was about 14, I saved up and bought the Duke.  Cost maybe twice as much as other leather or rubber balls.  I was in high demand for touch football games after that.  

Still is probably double or triple all balls 

 

duke is probably 79.99 if I guessed… amazing ball