Ray Guy, Greatest Punter, Ever dies

[Big Turk]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Cool.  Thanks.  

 

By the time I started watching football in the 50s, the commentators always talked about field position.  But by then teams were moving the ball up and down the field better than the earlier eras you're talking about.   Still, in the fifties, you knew going for it on fourth down anyplace other than inside the 20 was nuts, completely nuts.   Punt it.   What the NFL has discovered is that the game is more exciting if offenses are good enough that they can afford to take the risk of going for it.  The field position/punting game is dramatic, but boring.  And in that game, turnovers were even more important than today.  

 

I was generally a Jauron supporter, but he was definitely mired in an earlier era.   He was very much a field position guy.  He really did believe that punting was a good play.  

 

One thing that demonstrates how focus on field position is still important is how the rules about missed field goals have changed.   It used to be the case that missed field goal turned the ball over to the other team where the ball was downed, so a missed field goal was often as good as a punt, or resulted in a touchback.  In order to get more offense, and to discourage teams from kicking field goals all the time (which is what was going on in the 50s and 60s), they changed it to missed field goals turn over the ball at the line of scrimmage.   Then, for the same reasons, they changed it to the spot the ball was kicked from.  Those changes kept making offense more and more important, and as that happened, punting became less important.  

 

Which is exactly my case as to why Sammy Baugh is the greatest punter ever...and he only did it part time...most well known for his QB play...imagine if Josh Allen decided to punt and then became one of the best punters in NFL history to the point it took a player starting his career 48 years after he retired to surpass his gross yards per punt average.  What he did was insane.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Big Turk

[Shaw66]

32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

RIP for sure...BUT

 

Does that really make him the greatest punter ever tho? 

 

I would actually nominate Sammy Baugh for that...most people know him for his QB heroics as "Slingin' Sammy" Baugh, but few know that he is STILL top 30 all-time in career punting average at 45.1 Yards/Punt.  And it's not like he only hit a few of them, he punted 338 times in his career. This was back when punting wasn't looked at as something you practiced, players just kinda went out there and did it on gameday and most played other positions as well.  Baugh was an elite punter who played QB most of the time...it would be like if Josh Allen played QB and only practiced during the week at QB but then came out and also was one of the best punters in NFL history. Far more impressive than a guy who only does punting to me and focused on it all week long.

 

In fact, what is even more impressive is that Baugh is the only player in the top 30(he is 29th) that didn't start his career in the 2000's, which obviously shows how much punters(and obviously kickers as well) have improved throughout the years. Baugh's career started in 1937 and ended in 1952.  It took 48 years for a punter starting his career then to be better than him doing something that was something he didn't even really practice doing.  That's impressive.

 

 

Well, this is really interesting, and I thank you for digging out this information, but I think you're misinterpreting the data.  

 

As Logic pointed out, before any of us was alive (i.e., for example, in the Sammy Baugh era), because field position was so important, they often punted on second and third down.   Those weren't what we think of today as standard punts - the punter didn't drop back 15 yards to avoid the rush of punt blockers.  Punts on second and third down were quick kicks - the players would line up in their standard offensive formations and take a direct snap five or six yards behind the line of scrimmage, take a step and punt it.   Occasionally, they'd do a quick shift before the snap to get a little depth, but often they just took the snap and kicked it.  If I recall correctly, they'd do something like that Aussie-style kick - a step or two to the right and kick it.   

 

Quick kicks are the opposite of fake punts.   You fake an offensive play and punt instead. 

 

When you quick kick, hang time is completely unimportant, because the defense is set up to stop an offensive play and there is no safety deep to return the kick.  So, the kicker kicked line drives and the ball just bounced and rolled downfield.   

 

Baugh was a good quarterback and also a good kicker, so he was perfect for quick kicks.   He'd line up essentially in the shotgun, where he often lined up on offensive plays, and kick it as soon as he got it.  He averaged 45 yards a punt because a lot of his punts just bounced and rolled the last 20 yards downfield.  

[US Egg]

A true game changer of the punting position.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by I am the egg man

[Big Turk]

15 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, this is really interesting, and I thank you for digging out this information, but I think you're misinterpreting the data.  

 

As Logic pointed out, before any of us was alive (i.e., for example, in the Sammy Baugh era), because field position was so important, they often punted on second and third down.   Those weren't what we think of today as standard punts - the punter didn't drop back 15 yards to avoid the rush of punt blockers.  Punts on second and third down were quick kicks - the players would line up in their standard offensive formations and take a direct snap five or six yards behind the line of scrimmage, take a step and punt it.   Occasionally, they'd do a quick shift before the snap to get a little depth, but often they just took the snap and kicked it.  If I recall correctly, they'd do something like that Aussie-style kick - a step or two to the right and kick it.   

 

Quick kicks are the opposite of fake punts.   You fake an offensive play and punt instead. 

 

When you quick kick, hang time is completely unimportant, because the defense is set up to stop an offensive play and there is no safety deep to return the kick.  So, the kicker kicked line drives and the ball just bounced and rolled downfield.   

 

Baugh was a good quarterback and also a good kicker, so he was perfect for quick kicks.   He'd line up essentially in the shotgun, where he often lined up on offensive plays, and kick it as soon as he got it.  He averaged 45 yards a punt because a lot of his punts just bounced and rolled the last 20 yards downfield.  

 

Wow...that's interesting to note...I did not realize that was such a huge part of the game back in the day...

 

But...it still took a player that started their career 48 years after he retired to break his record...Ray Guy and all the other punters who were specialists only had plenty of time to do that but didn't, so it isn't like everyone else was doing the same thing during that time or even after it.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Big Turk

[st pete gogolak]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

RIP for sure...BUT

 

Does that really make him the greatest punter ever tho? 

 

I would actually nominate Sammy Baugh for that...most people know him for his QB heroics as "Slingin' Sammy" Baugh, but few know that he is STILL top 30 all-time in career punting average at 45.1 Yards/Punt.  And it's not like he only hit a few of them, he punted 338 times in his career. This was back when punting wasn't looked at as something you practiced, players just kinda went out there and did it on gameday and most played other positions as well.  Baugh was an elite punter who played QB most of the time...it would be like if Josh Allen played QB and only practiced during the week at QB but then came out and also was one of the best punters in NFL history. Far more impressive than a guy who only does punting to me and focused on it all week long.

 

In fact, what is even more impressive is that Baugh is the only player in the top 30(he is 29th) that didn't start his career in the 2000's, which obviously shows how much punters(and obviously kickers as well) have improved throughout the years. Baugh's career started in 1937 and ended in 1952.  It took 48 years for a punter starting his career then to be better than him doing something that was something he didn't even really practice doing.  That's impressive.

 

 

Didn't Baugh play DB as well and have at least one year with double digit INT's?  Crazy stuff.  Different era.

[Big Turk]

33 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

Didn't Baugh play DB as well and have at least one year with double digit INT's?  Crazy stuff.  Different era.

 

Yes! That was crazy! He led the league with 11 INT's in 1943. So basically he was the best QB, best punter and led the NFL in INT's one year...quite possibly one of the greatest all around players in NFL history.

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Wow...that's interesting to note...I did not realize that was such a huge part of the game back in the day...

 

But...it still took a player that started their career 48 years after he retired to break his record...Ray Guy and all the other punters who were specialists only had plenty of time to do that but didn't, so it isn't like everyone else was doing the same thing during that time or even after it.

Look, I don't want to take anything away from Sammy Baugh, because he was an all-time great player.  But the fact that it took 48 yard to break his record is not a measure of his greatness.   It's a measure of how much the game has changed.  

 

Baugh was a single-wing back.   He ran and he passed.   And, yes, he was a good punter but as I said, he got to quick often, which meant that he was punting 10 yards closer to the line of scrimmage than on normal punts, and he got the benefit of the bounce and roll, since no one was back to return it.   By the time he retired, teams were quick kicking infrequently, so no one after him had the opportunity to punt with that advantage.   

 

You want a measure of how much football changed around the time Baugh retired?   Baugh may have been the greatest of all single-wing passers, but the single-wing was dying as the T formation, with the QB under center, began to take over.  In 1940, Baugh lost the NFL championship game to Sid Luckman, the first of the great modern quarterbacks, 73-0!   Baugh and the then Redskins were blown away playing old-style football.   That game was an indication that field position was becoming less important, and by the end of the 40s, none of the pros were playing single-wing.  So that 48 year gap happened because punting changed fundamentally.   There wasn't another fundamental change until, well, until Ray Guy came along.  

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

In terms of pure stats, I'm sure that Ray Guy's numbers no longer stand out.  But measured against his era, he was indeed the greatest punter ever. 

 

He was taken in the first round, maybe the only punter ever taken in the first round.  He could put the ball wherever you wanted it.  He could hit the coffin corner.  He could get hang time.  He could hit line drives over the return man's head.  He could run, and he could pass.   We all loved Moorman, because he was a weapon.  Ray Guy was a much better weapon.   He was dominant.  

 

Of course, teams scored less and punted more in those days, and punters were more important than they are today.  In the field-position-game that they played back then, he was one of the most valuable players in the league.  

Steve little 1978

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

RIP for sure...BUT

 

Does that really make him the greatest punter ever tho? 

 

I would actually nominate Sammy Baugh for that...most people know him for his QB heroics as "Slingin' Sammy" Baugh, but few know that he is STILL top 30 all-time in career punting average at 45.1 Yards/Punt.  And it's not like he only hit a few of them, he punted 338 times in his career. This was back when punting wasn't looked at as something you practiced, players just kinda went out there and did it on gameday and most played other positions as well.  Baugh was an elite punter who played QB most of the time...it would be like if Josh Allen played QB and only practiced during the week at QB but then came out and also was one of the best punters in NFL history. Far more impressive than a guy who only does punting to me and focused on it all week long.

 

In fact, what is even more impressive is that Baugh is the only player in the top 30(he is 29th) that didn't start his career in the 2000's, which obviously shows how much punters(and obviously kickers as well) have improved throughout the years. Baugh's career started in 1937 and ended in 1952.  It took 48 years for a punter starting his career then to be better than him doing something that was something he didn't even really practice doing.  That's impressive.

 

 

Thanks for posting this. I did not know this about Baugh.  What is even more impressive is if I am reading that table correctly he is #1 in Net Punt yards which is actually the more important punting metric.  

[Nextmanup]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

He was a Ray of sunshine.

He always had nice things to say about others.

He was that kind of guy.

 

 

[Shaw66]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Steve little 1978

Cool.  

Never heard of him.  Looked him up.  He was drafted as a placekicker/punter, not a pure punter.  

 

He had an unbelievably horrible life story.   All state QB in high school in Kansas.   Went to Arkansas to replace Joe Ferguson.  Turned into a punter-placekicker when he couldn't cut it at QB.   Was outstanding in college, drafted in the first round.  In the NFL he was horrible - one bad season punting and two bad seasons placekicking.  Hours after his release after three seasons, he was in a one-car accident, became a paraplegic, and died in hospice care at age 43.   Tragic.   

7 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Thanks for posting this. I did not know this about Baugh.  What is even more impressive is if I am reading that table correctly he is #1 in Net Punt yards which is actually the more important punting metric.  

Ethan, if you read the rest of the thread, you'll see that Baugh punted in the era of the quick kick, which meant that at least sometimes, and sometimes even several times in a game, he punted from essentially the shotgun on third down with no return man dropped deep.   So, (1) he had a 10-yard advantage on those punts, (2) he didn't need hang time, because there would be no return, and (3) he got the benefit of the ball bouncing and rolling downfield, because there was no one back there to pick it up.  Punting that way is great for your net yards.  

[Manther]

RIP

[K-9]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

RIP for sure...BUT

 

Does that really make him the greatest punter ever tho? 

 

I would actually nominate Sammy Baugh for that...most people know him for his QB heroics as "Slingin' Sammy" Baugh, but few know that he is STILL top 30 all-time in career punting average at 45.1 Yards/Punt.  And it's not like he only hit a few of them, he punted 338 times in his career. This was back when punting wasn't looked at as something you practiced, players just kinda went out there and did it on gameday and most played other positions as well.  Baugh was an elite punter who played QB most of the time...it would be like if Josh Allen played QB and only practiced during the week at QB but then came out and also was one of the best punters in NFL history. Far more impressive than a guy who only does punting to me and focused on it all week long.

 

In fact, what is even more impressive is that Baugh is the only player in the top 30(he is 29th) that didn't start his career in the 2000's, which obviously shows how much punters(and obviously kickers as well) have improved throughout the years. Baugh's career started in 1937 and ended in 1952.  It took 48 years for a punter starting his career then to be better than him doing something that was something he didn't even really practice doing.  That's impressive.

 

 

Taking nothing away from the punters listed and especially the great Sammy Baugh, but yards per punt is just not the be all, end all when it comes to a punter’s effectiveness. 

[Nextmanup]

He was only 72!  Kind of young to go these days. 

 

He was in a class of his own for a long time.  

 

He and Dave Jennings were like the kings of punting for a long time, at least as I remember it.

Now they are all good.

 

 

[dwight in philly]

He was a player who essentially established the Punter position.. watching Gary Collins , wide receiver for the Browns, Maguire , Wayne Crow, for the Bills.. all "part time"R I P. 

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, dwight in philly said:

He was a player who essentially established the Punter position.. watching Gary Collins , wide receiver for the Browns, Maguire , Wayne Crow, for the Bills.. all "part time"R I P. 

Gary Collins!

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Beast said:

Great athlete. The OBJ of punters.

 

 

3 hours ago, Beast said:

Great athlete. The OBJ of punters.

 

 

   

Man!  Look at that!  I might have said the Biletnikoff of punters, but I guess OBJ is better. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

RIP.

 

He was a great punter, but with the notoriety of his draft position and his team..I think he was elevated above Jerrel Wilson who I think contemporaries felt was the better punter.

[dwight in philly]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Gary Collins!

Back around 62, the Browns games were shown in Buffalo nearly every Sunday on CBS.. watched that team threw out the early-mid sixties .. 

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, dwight in philly said:

Back around 62, the Browns games were shown in Buffalo nearly every Sunday on CBS.. watched that team threw out the early-mid sixties .. 

Me too!   Frank Ryan, the professor, to Gary Collins for three TDs in the NFL championship game, plus three punts for a 44-yard average.   I wanted to be Gary Collins, but I couldn't kick.