SectionC3 Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 33 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: And many people who have been locked up because they couldn't afford bail did NOT commit the crime. That's my point. Like everything else in todays society too many people treat this issue as black and white. It’s not. It’s gray. I completely agree with you about the dangers of cash bail in certain scenarios. I also question the wisdom of precluding bail in other instances. As you’ve noted, this isn’t a “one or the other” situation. But unfortunately too many people see it that way.
Tiberius Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 Malcom Gladwell wrote in his book "Blink" about how judges just have to make a snap decision on whether to free a person accused of a crime and have so little info to go on for such an important issue. It's all just a crap shoot and many people end up in jail for a long time because they can't come up with $300. It's a messed up system. Good book, btw! 1
LeviF Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: You say this as if this wasn’t in that very same post: “State legislators carefully considered revisiting this rule in 2020 but ultimately decided against it.” Not addressing this leaves a loophole where people who clearly pose a threat aren’t detained if they aren’t charged with a felony. It may be good-intentioned to try to avoid bias but if you have someone who has committed assaults, requires a restraining order, and has a history of violence, the judge should be able to have them held even if none of the specific charges amount to a felony. It’s not a loophole then lol it’s by design.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: Crime is up a bit but the coverage of crime in the news is grossly disproportionate to reality, leading people to believe that crime is much worse than it really is: For people who experience crime, that's not a comforting thought and we need to implement reality based solutions. However, the fearmongering is also very beneficial to some actors, which helps drive the narrative that crime is skyrocketing when it's really not. That app your friend uses is likely Citizen. It's interesting and can be helpful, but it relies on user-reported information. I've seen multiple times when there was a shooting reported and then it turned out it was fireworks (some neighborhoods here love fireworks for some reason) or some other loud noise and not actually a shooting. I agree that there can be competing interests when it comes to how and why crime reported. I think it happens both ways, as there are actors who benefit from the suppression or reimagining of events to minimize legitimate concerns. I live within a few miles of one of the larger malls in NYS (at least at one time, anyway, no idea what’s grown or shrank the last few years). It’s common knowledge that there is a fairly significant and sustained crime problem there that is underreported. Theft, assault, sexual assault, robbery all occur with regularity. The philosophy seems to be it’s not in the best interest of major stakeholders (mall ownership, shop owners, the town) to broadcast these issues due to the revenue that comes with it. Anyway, I get your point, but with due respect, these are accomplished, educated and worldly individuals. One travels extensively and manages to avoid jumping at the notion of a sparkler being brandished around the street corner. I think people manage to their expectation when it relates to crime. One guy moved. Another guy adjusted. Neither have skin in the game in this conversation, and may not reflect the prevailing view in the city of Chicago. On the other hand, it’s a bit presumptuous to assume the most logical explanation for their concerns is that they have fallen victim to fearmongering. 9 minutes ago, LeviF said: It’s not a loophole then lol it’s by design. Entirely possible. Could be incompetence as well. Edited November 3, 2022 by leh-nerd skin-erd
T master Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Tiberius said: Don't tell this to the people that always say Trump is "Innocent until proven guilty." He has top secret documents that could compromise the safety of American democracy. But he is free. Yep that's exactly why they won't let a independent judge look at the papers to prove that they are so incredibly secret documents . They are so secret they don't want anyone else to know just exactly what they are about they only want speculation !! 1 1
Tiberius Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, T master said: Yep that's exactly why they won't let a independent judge look at the papers to prove that they are so incredibly secret documents . They are so secret they don't want anyone else to know just exactly what they are about they only want speculation !! Stop pretending you care if he was f'n the country over for personal gain. You could care less if he helping Putin and the rest of the scum bag dictators. You want him to hurt our country Laughter through tears for the republic haters 1 1
T master Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 2 hours ago, peterpan said: How many times have you thought to yourself or heard someone say “why doesn’t someone DO SOMETHING!?!?” Well this November 8th, you can do that something!! this story hs not gotten much attention and I have only seen it reported in the NYPost. But this cashless bail MUST END. just watch this viscous beating of this woman and try to justify this guy walking free the same day!!! He then comes back and murders a mother of 3. https://nypost.com/2022/11/01/ny-man-sprung-on-no-bail-in-facebook-posted-beating-guns-down-wife-cops/ Vote how you want for the national races, but please vote for Lee Zeldin for Governor. this is much too serious an issue for partisanship. This is a total crock of S**T this POS will get life in prison and we the people will have to pay for his 3 hots & a cot for the rest of his life because the death penalty in the libs eyes is cruel & unusual punishment . BFNS !!!! The criminals now get more protection than the law abiding citizens !!! Even though this guy had a past that showed he was violent . What they need to start doing is putting the law makers/governors & the judges that allow this kind of no bail release crap to happen hold them responsible for this kind of thing . Hey if a kid gets his dads gun & shoots another kid the parents are held responsible for the actions of the kid & not being responsible enough to put the fire arm in a place the kid can't get it or to not be parent enough to let the kid know if he touches it he will get his ass beat OMG that would be abuse in & of it self though to discipline a child (but this is what happens when discipline isn't present) so what is so different with this ? Crime is on the rise in every major city due to this defund the police crap that some politicians that head up these cities certain groups spew because the police use to much force well yes there may be some of that but this kind of POS needs to be hung in the square like they use to do flopping around like a dying fish for all to see then buried under the prison . These poor kids the older 1 especially will have to live with this for the rest of their life & the only thing the younger one has going for them is that they may be to young to remember i pray . 14 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Stop pretending you care if he was f'n the country over for personal gain. You could care less if he helping Putin and the rest of the scum bag dictators. You want him to hurt our country Laughter through tears for the republic haters If you were any more brain dead we would have to hook you up to life support . 1
Tiberius Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, T master said: If you were any more brain dead we would have to hook you up to life support . God bless America! You haters will lose
T master Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: God bless America! You haters will lose The only thing i hate is liars, thieves, & laziness because that means those that are lazy will expect me to pick up their slack OH & although i don't hate them i very much dislike those weak enough to let those type of afore mentioned things go unchecked because they to like you expect everyone else to pick up or pay for those others .
Tiberius Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, T master said: The only thing i hate is liars, thieves, & laziness because that means those that are lazy will expect me to pick up their slack OH & although i don't hate them i very much dislike those weak enough to let those type of afore mentioned things go unchecked because they to like you expect everyone else to pick up or pay for those others . You are a liar and a hypocrite. You love Trump
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: Crime is up a bit but the coverage of crime in the news is grossly disproportionate to reality, leading people to believe that crime is much worse than it really is: For people who experience crime, that's not a comforting thought and we need to implement reality based solutions. However, the fearmongering is also very beneficial to some actors, which helps drive the narrative that crime is skyrocketing when it's really not. That app your friend uses is likely Citizen. It's interesting and can be helpful, but it relies on user-reported information. I've seen multiple times when there was a shooting reported and then it turned out it was fireworks (some neighborhoods here love fireworks for some reason) or some other loud noise and not actually a shooting. its hard to make out with the way the shooting rate is plotted with the y axis, but is seems to suggest shootings have tripled since Jan 19? yikes! Why is that worth media attention?!? also msm is owned by the democrats so is it that the shooting mentions are geared against the second amendment as opposed to crime fear mongering. seems that wasn’t considered in this narrative.
Chef Jim Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, SectionC3 said: Like everything else in todays society too many people treat this issue as black and white. It’s not. It’s gray. I completely agree with you about the dangers of cash bail in certain scenarios. I also question the wisdom of precluding bail in other instances. As you’ve noted, this isn’t a “one or the other” situation. But unfortunately too many people see it that way. Yikes....I may need to rethink my position here. 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: While appreciate the sentiment, that’s not a reason to allow people who DID commit a crime to be immediately released back into society. I’m going to side with the victims, and potential future victims, here and support a bail system that allows the truly innocent to get out while awaiting trial. But that’s just me. It really isn’t that hard to avoid being arrested of a crime! Please define the "truly innocent" who have not yet stood trial. 1
LeviF Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Entirely possible. Could be incompetence as well. They shot that down once the problem was pointed out and they didn’t fix it. It’s malevolence. 1
Westside Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, SectionC3 said: innocent until proven guilty. Unless your name is Trump or voted for him. Hypocrite 1
ChiGoose Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, T master said: Yep that's exactly why they won't let a independent judge look at the papers to prove that they are so incredibly secret documents . They are so secret they don't want anyone else to know just exactly what they are about they only want speculation !! Tell us that you have no ideal how the legal system works without saying "I have no idea how the legal system works." 2
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: Tell us that you have no ideal how the legal system works without saying "I have no idea how the legal system works." Placing blind faith in “how the legal system works” is a recipe for disaster. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of how the system works would acknowledge there are at times abuses, malicious prosecution, wayward prosecutors and corruption. A day doesn’t go by when a story breaks about some poor soul that was on the wrong side of the justice system and it turns out the system wasn’t so just. I’m just an average guy on the street but it seems to me if you listen to people who say “It’s the system” and an aggrieved party doesn’t push back, they are likely to get steamrolled by said system. For the life of me, I can’t understand the DOJ fighting the appointment of the Special Master. If the department acted appropriately, there is absolutely nothing to fear. It was their raid, based on their rules, which supposedly align with the just, fair and true system.
SectionC3 Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Westside said: Unless your name is Trump or voted for him. Hypocrite Hoax. Self-victimization is unbecoming, FYI. 1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Placing blind faith in “how the legal system works” is a recipe for disaster. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of how the system works would acknowledge there are at times abuses, malicious prosecution, wayward prosecutors and corruption. A day doesn’t go by when a story breaks about some poor soul that was on the wrong side of the justice system and it turns out the system wasn’t so just. I’m just an average guy on the street but it seems to me if you listen to people who say “It’s the system” and an aggrieved party doesn’t push back, they are likely to get steamrolled by said system. For the life of me, I can’t understand the DOJ fighting the appointment of the Special Master. If the department acted appropriately, there is absolutely nothing to fear. It was their raid, based on their rules, which supposedly align with the just, fair and true system. The special master was a delay tactic. Frankly it wasn’t needed in a situation such as that one. The DOJ (and other investigatory agencies) typically set up “curtains” to ensure that anything that might be privileged is sifted from documents that could be evidence and that are forwarded to prosecutors. Say, for sake of argument, that the FBI is right and that it seized from Mar-a-Lago docs related to national security. There’s no reason to diddle around with a special master to ensure that something that might be privileged (a letter between Trump and counsel) or immaterial (a receipt for a hamburger at Five Guys) isn’t reviewed by the FBI. Time is of the essence. The same arguably goes with the prosecution, too. Justice delayed is justice denied. No reason to wait around for a special master who might work two hours a day to go through thousands of documents. It was a smart tactical move by Trump’s attorneys that ultimately backfired (or, at least, didn’t work out as planned).
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: Hoax. Self-victimization is unbecoming, FYI. The special master was a delay tactic. Frankly it wasn’t needed in a situation such as that one. The DOJ (and other investigatory agencies) typically set up “curtains” to ensure that anything that might be privileged is sifted from documents that could be evidence and that are forwarded to prosecutors. Say, for sake of argument, that the FBI is right and that it seized from Mar-a-Lago docs related to national security. There’s no reason to diddle around with a special master to ensure that something that might be privileged (a letter between Trump and counsel) or immaterial (a receipt for a hamburger at Five Guys) isn’t reviewed by the FBI. Time is of the essence. The same arguably goes with the prosecution, too. Justice delayed is justice denied. No reason to wait around for a special master who might work two hours a day to go through thousands of documents. It was a smart tactical move by Trump’s attorneys that ultimately backfired (or, at least, didn’t work out as planned). That’s the argument made by the DOJ, of course… that’s there’s no time to have independent voices involved, or to have people second guessing what they do and how they do it. in essence….”just trust us”. Evidence suggests that not alway the wisest course of action.
ChiGoose Posted November 3, 2022 Posted November 3, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Placing blind faith in “how the legal system works” is a recipe for disaster. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of how the system works would acknowledge there are at times abuses, malicious prosecution, wayward prosecutors and corruption. A day doesn’t go by when a story breaks about some poor soul that was on the wrong side of the justice system and it turns out the system wasn’t so just. I’m just an average guy on the street but it seems to me if you listen to people who say “It’s the system” and an aggrieved party doesn’t push back, they are likely to get steamrolled by said system. For the life of me, I can’t understand the DOJ fighting the appointment of the Special Master. If the department acted appropriately, there is absolutely nothing to fear. It was their raid, based on their rules, which supposedly align with the just, fair and true system. I'm not saying to have blind faith in how the legal system works. I'm saying that we should probably know how it's supposed to work before making wild accusations. There is no criminal indictment or action against Donald Trump. Once there is, he can file motions to view the documents or exclude evidence as privileged or overly prejudicial. If the Feds decide not to charge him, they will have to return his stuff at that time. If they delay for a long time (roughly a year), Trump can file a Bivens motion to get his stuff back. He also has no possessory right to documents from the White House once he is no longer president. This is part of why the DoJ opposed the Special Master: a traditional filter team would be sufficient in this case. Additionally, a special master sets a precedent that others will (and already have) seek to have for basically any case. All of this concern about talk and perception are irrelevant to legal proceedings. If you want to talk about media criticism, I think we'd probably agree on a lot about how poorly these things are handled. Generally the DoJ tries to keep ongoing investigations under wraps as much as possible, but ended up going public about this one because Trump wouldn't shut up about it. If the DoJ charges Trump, he'll get additional rights and duties that will give him access to the information the DoJ collected and plans to use against him. He will be able to see what they have. He will be able to challenge to say that things shouldn't be admissible in the trial. The things that he is trying to do now (that he has little chance of succeeding on) are things he will be able to do once he's actually charged. If the DoJ doesn't charge Trump, they have to return his stuff to him. But as I said, in either case, the White House documents are not his and will not be returned to him. This is all standard practice and serves to both protect the person being searched (we wouldn't know about this if Trump didn't talk about it), as well as the investigation (if the target knows everything the investigation has before they charge, they can work to get rid of other evidence or tamper with potential witnesses). tl;dr: This is all normal stuff except that Trump has terrible attorneys who don't seem to understand what law is. Edited November 3, 2022 by ChiGoose
peterpan Posted November 3, 2022 Author Posted November 3, 2022 Good grief every discussion turns into a toddler fight about trump. This isn’t about trump. It’s about innocent NYers being killed raped assaulted every day by repeat criminals who many times commit crimes the same day they are released. In Rochester a man was arrest for arson (and released) 4 times in five days. another Rochester man shot someone on video, and admitted to being the shooter to the judge, he was released. This can and must end. Please vote Lee Zeldin. 1
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