Is There So Little Love for Tremaine Edmunds?

[LeGOATski]

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I guess I thought that when you said “his tackles generally were near the line of scrimmage” you meant at the line of scrimmage, but maybe you meant that 5 yards or so is near the line of scrimmage. 

 

 

We can agree to disagree on that.

 

Its more accurate, in my opinion, to say he got lucky. He did not even touch the ball. He wasn’t looking at the ball. The ball hit the receivers shoulder pads and bounced off.

 

 

In my opinion he gets credit for being in position to make a play, but he didn’t actually make the play. He never touched the ball. He never even saw the ball.

 

.

You've lost all remaining credibility with this take. 

[Einstein]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

Just learned about that stat. Thanks for teaching me something.

 

 

[LeGOATski]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

There are a number of star LBs out there Bills fans love, but would bash them if they actually played for the Bills.

[Einstein]

51 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don’t think most Bills fans have ever understood this fundamental truth about Edmunds: The size and speed and wingspan he possesses...

 

This is true. Edmunds athletic and physical ability is undeniable. I mentioned it below (from the Ravens game). Not many LB's have the speed and length to cross the field and catch up to an elite runner like Lamar Jackson. Edmunds does.

 

The question becomes - does that size and speed and wingspan make up for his lack of between the tackles run-stopping ability and other imperfect qualities?

 

 

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Just learned about that stat. Thanks for teaching me something.

 

 

I actually don't think it's all that relevant in evaluating players in our defense tbh.

 

For example vs the run our LBs are often tasked w spilling blocks and so our safeties/Taron Johnson are going to have lower average depth of tackle vs their peers which is less a function of their quality of play than it is our scheme

 

Likewise Edmunds has a much deeper box than a traditional MLB, so average depth of tackle isn't going to necessarily reflect on his play either

 

 

[Einstein]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I actually don't think it's all that relevant in evaluating players in our defense tbh.

 

For example vs the run our LBs are often tasked w spilling blocks and so our safeties/Taron Johnson are going to have lower average depth of tackle vs their peers which is less a function of their quality of play than it is our scheme

 

Likewise Edmunds has a much deeper box than a traditional MLB, so average depth of tackle isn't going to necessarily reflect on his play either

 

Thoughts on this stat?

 

 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Thoughts on this stat?

 

 

It's not surprising

[FireChans]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Shaq Leonard - 5 yr $98M deal

 

Fred Warner - 5 yr $95M deal

 

Matt Milano - 4 year $41M deal

 

Tremaine Edmunds - playing on his fifth year option with no long-term deal in sight

[ScorpionZero]

Unfortunately he doesn't make enough big plays at MLB, if we played a traditional 4-3 and he was at outside linebacker there world be something there. Falling tackles 3-4 yards downfield isn't gonna get you your next big contract. I would keep him if his price was right, but not what he does. Give me another Milano at middle/SS linebacker. Kinda why they drafted the linebackers they did. Look for a high draft pick for a hybrid safety/linebacker that can take his place.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Shaq Leonard - 5 yr $98M deal

 

Fred Warner - 5 yr $95M deal

 

Matt Milano - 4 year $41M deal

 

Tremaine Edmunds - playing on his fifth year option with no long-term deal in sight

Good argument 😂😂

 

All the biggest QB contracts are the best guys too right

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Good argument 😂😂

 

All the biggest QB contracts are the best guys too right

The actual argument would be most QB's who don't get locked up to a long term deal almost all are not good.  lol.

Edited November 2, 2022 by FireChans

[Shaw66]

30 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

1.  I guess I thought that when you said “his tackles generally were near the line of scrimmage” you meant at the line of scrimmage, but maybe you meant that 5 yards or so is near the line of scrimmage. 

 

2.  Its more accurate, in my opinion, to say he got lucky. He did not even touch the ball. He wasn’t looking at the ball. The ball hit the receivers shoulder pads and bounced off.

 

 

3.  In my opinion he gets credit for being in position to make a play, but he didn’t actually make the play. He never touched the ball. He never even saw the ball.

 

.

Thanks for talking about this.   I have to say that although I've come to understand what it is that they've asked Edmunds to do, it's also become clear to me that there are no tools available to fans, tools like stats, that can help us understand how important his impact on the defense.  I think the impact is significant, but I can't really say that, because I don't have the tools to measure that impact.  

 

As to your point 1., you now understand what I meant.  I was critical of Edmunds for his first three seasons in the same way a lot of fans here are critical of him.  He seemed clearly to be making mistakes on the field, attacking the wrong gaps, overrunning plays, etc.  After a while, I began to see that he although sometime he was making mistakes, a lot of the time he was doing what he was told to do.  In the last couple of seasons I've slowly learned and understood what McDermott has said over and over again, that this a team defense, that everyone has 1/11th to do, etc.  The defense works by everyone understanding where he's supposed to be and by everyone making tackles when the opportunity arises.   Edmunds job is NOT to attack the line of scrimmage, even though that's what we've all grown accustomed to seeing in great linebackers over the past, in my case, 70 years.   His job is to make tackle the ball carriers who make it through the initial line of defense. 

 

What's the initial line of defense?   Well, it's four to six guys, depending on the play call.  One of the safeties attacks the run at the line of scrimmage much more than Edmunds does.  And Milano does, too.  Edmunds job seems to be not make plays at the point of attack but to clean up the mess when none of the guys at the point of attack make the tackle.  His job is to prevent five-yard gains from becoming 15 yard gains.   So, he makes a lot tackles five yards beyond the line of scrimmage.   I have a sense, but it is only a sense, that he is doing that much better this season, and maybe last, than he did earlier.   Earlier, he was chasing the ball carrier down the field; now he's forcing the ball carrier out of bounds - he's moving laterally and not letting him get to the secondary. 

 

2.   Yes, I agree, he was lucky on the pass break up.  He didn't make a classic play on the ball.  But I have absolutely no doubt that when the coaches grade that play he got high grades.  His first job on pass defense is to occupy space and by doing so, to discourage the QB from throwing over the middle.  I think he's doing that better than ever, because there are fewer passes being completed over the middle this season.  Those passes are the ones that resulted in a lot of Edmunds tackles this season.  There aren't so many of those this season.

 

His second job is to be cose enough to the receiver to make the tackle if the pass is complete.   His third job is to break up the pass.   He clearly did the second job, and he did it so well he broke up the pass, by luck you say.   I agree, in the most ideal situation, the defender finds the ball and knocks it down.   He didn't do that.   But he was, legally, so close to the receiver that he made it impossible for the receiver to catch the ball, and that certainly is good enough to get the PBU.   And that's my answer to 3.  He made the play.  

 

Pass defenders get very few pure pass breakups.  It's just too hard.  

[ScorpionZero]

As a middle linebacker where was he when green bay was running the ball right down our throat, he's supposed to be that guy you have to take outta the play to run the ball, but where was he. I do like Edmonds, but he's an of the ball linebacker who tries to stop the pass and mitigate the run, that's why he's tackling 4-6 yards down the field. Cleaning up what the D-line doesn't get. Linebackers today are basically big safeties, because of how offenses are rolling. Greenbay proved that by running the football right at us. But unless you have a decent passing game it just isn't sustainable. I would like to keep him for the right price but I think he's been playing out of position all these years. He should've been an OLB 

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, ScorpionZero said:

Unfortunately he doesn't make enough big plays at MLB

This is the core misunderstanding of Edmunds role.   His job is not to make the big plays you're looking for.   His job is not to blitz, so he doesn't get sacks.   His job is not to attack the line of scrimmage, so he doesn't get TFLs.  His job is to occupy a lot of territory and make tackles when they come to him.   By occupying a lot of space, he makes it easier for all of the pass defenders to do THEIR jobs.  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

22 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I looked but didn't see a Tremaine Edmunds thread.  Well, one that was locked.

 

I was at the game and have had the benefit of no real discussion of the game.  All I knew at the game was that every time I looked, Edmunds was making another tackle.  Not always picture book, but he wasn't missing many.  And his tackles generally were near the line of scrimmage.   And he had a pass break up that nearly was intercepted. 

 

What is interesting about Edmunds this season is that he's making good stops in the run game, because he isn't being blocked.  The D line, I think, is making it tough for offensive linemen to get to the linebacker level, and Edmunds is able to read and react.  He's been a sure tackler, and his pas coverage last night also seemed solid.   Milano makes more spectacular plays, but I think Edmunds may have had more impact on the defense.

 

He's not Roquan Smith; he's not plugging gaps and making a bunch of tackles that way.   He really is protecting the whole field, laterally.  His job is make sure that the Bills bend but don't break.  

 

16 tackles is nothing to sneer at, even if it happened because the Packers featured the run.  Yes, the Packers had a lot of statistical success running the ball, but the Bills are willing to give them that success.   I know that sounds stupid, and McDermott would never say it, but let's face it:   This team is built to say the opponent, "We're going to put up 28 or more - we challenge you to match it."   Their defensive style very much is, "If you're going to move the ball, you're going to do it only with long, sustained drives.  If you can do that, you'll get some scores against us, but we don't think you can do that and get to 28."   And that is exactly what happened last night.   The way that kind of defensive philosophy succeeds is that you make a lot tackles (notice that the Bills often lose time of possession and often have fewer plays than the opponent, which means the Bills are making a lot tackles).  Last night, those tackles came to Edmunds.   

 

I don't know what I missed about his performance, and I'll be happy to hear what others thought.  

 

 

The biggest problem by far with Tremaine, is a total lack of understanding of football is not an impediment whatsoever to tbd’ers posting strong opinions as fact.
 

He’s good, really good. The nfl players and coaches all know it. Yes he’s so athletically gifted he underachieves compared to Micah parsons or the like.
 

But he is rock solid. I mean half the posters here still think all linebackers have the role Ray Lewis did without realizing how different the D systems can be. And a number of his detractors completely miss that Milano makes errors too, mainly because this d relies on those two spots to do a lot. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

19 minutes ago, ScorpionZero said:

As a middle linebacker where was he when green bay was running the ball right down our throat, he's supposed to be that guy you have to take outta the play to run the ball, but where was he. I do like Edmonds, but he's an of the ball linebacker who tries to stop the pass and mitigate the run, that's why he's tackling 4-6 yards down the field. Cleaning up what the D-line doesn't get. Linebackers today are basically big safeties, because of how offenses are rolling. Greenbay proved that by running the football right at us. But unless you have a decent passing game it just isn't sustainable. I would like to keep him for the right price but I think he's been playing out of position all these years. He should've been an OLB 

Wrong wrong wrong.. this isn’t a wrecks Ryan 3-4. This defense works completely differently than ‘MLB go get running back’

[BuffaloFan68]

Tremaine Edmunds is becoming a Beast and his ceiling is unlimited.

Let’s Go Buffalo!!!!!

[Dopey]

22 hours ago, Virgil said:

You forgot the 5 yard piggy back ride he gave the Packers player 

If you can watch the game again, you should go to 14:15 left in the 2nd qt. Dillon took Milano for a nice little ride. 4-5 yds.  It happens. Seems they stand out more for Edmunds 🤔

[Dopey]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

LMAO there are no topics about Roussea debating how good he is. Or Boogie Basham. Or even Oliver at this point.

 

They all dried up.  Because they proved something.

 

Cook hasn't.  And Edmunds hadn't.

I said they were called busts, in their rookie seasons. Your 2nd to last paragraph makes my point for me. 

[Dopey]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I'll have to watch the game again.

 

From recollection, it seemed like most of his tackles were 5+ yards downfield.

 

 

Should a player get credit for a PBU when they never turned around and the ball ricochet off the receivers shoulder pads?

 

 

 

He’s lined up 6 yds off the line and drops into coverage most times. Of course most of his tackles won’t be tfl. He’s not asked to do that. I think you might not like how he’s used. 
I just watched that play again and your still is deceiving. Edmunds definitely created the opportunity for an int and it was definitely a pbu.  
The still reeks of “agenda”. There’s no way you can see the play again and say it wasn’t a pbu. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Dopey