Is There So Little Love for Tremaine Edmunds?

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

 

Every LB looks great vs the run with a dominant DL. That's why teams invest so much money in them. Finding a LB who can fit the run as well as Edmunds isn't the issue, it's finding a guy who can do what Edmunds does in coverage that will be hard to replace. I'm with you though, I dunno how they'll be able to afford to keep him.

I definitely agree that his value is in pass defense, elite potential there, but I just don’t think the drop off from Edmunds to Milano-clone Bernard or a draft pick is a game changer.   The DL is the engine, and we have a loaded CB room, with one of the best LB’s in the NFL locked down.  
 

Mid-high teens per year may be what we’re willing to do, but I’d rather have two undersized speed/quickness LB’s behind a heavily invested in DL, than a freak in Edmunds occupying that much cap space. 

[HoofHearted]

11 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I’ve asked twice , I’ll ask again haha.

 

Quantifiably, how do you think Edmunds played on Sunday night? 
 

In run defense just okay. None of the big runs were his fault. Did see him getting off blocks that two years ago he would have just been swallowed up by, but at other times he got squared up and stalemated. In coverage he looked his normal self - his presence forces the ball to the sidelines a lot.

 

EDIT: His tackling wasn't very good this game overall. Pad level way too high.

 

9 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I definitely agree that his value is in pass defense, elite potential there, but I just don’t think the drop off from Edmunds to Milano-clone Bernard or a draft pick is a game changer.   The DL is the engine, and we have a loaded CB room, with one of the best LB’s in the NFL locked down.  
 

Mid-high teens per year may be what we’re willing to do, but I’d rather have two undersized speed/quickness LB’s behind a heavily invested in DL, than a freak in Edmunds occupying that much cap space. 

Bernard won't hold up inside. Milano is really bad when he's forced to spill blocks. It's just not their game.

Edited November 1, 2022 by HoofHearted

[hemma]

If people buy these, you could call one of them ‘Edmunds’ and then make him play exactly the way you prefer.

You can add your own sounds like Boom, Smash and the always popular Ouchies.  Get ‘em quick before Jets fans buy ‘em all up.

Edited November 1, 2022 by hemma

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Rigotz said:

 

Shaw, great post, well thought out ... but I think you're missing one big weakness with Edmunds. Tackling the ball carrier 5 yards from the line of scrimmage isn't a win.

 

I'll give you the most two recent examples of Bills linebackers who had a ton of tackles and weren't very good:

- Preston Brown - literally led the league in tackles in 2018, but was a liability vs the pass and was slow.

- Paul Posluszny - same story. Great instincts, but a slow twitch player with bad lateral mobility.

 

Edmunds is different in that he is an explosive athlete and is reasonably strong in coverage. However, call it lack of instincts, or awareness, or slow twitch, but he has the same issue as Brown and Posluszny, which make him an average to slightly above average player -- he doesn't blow up plays.

 

Nobody really thinks that Edmunds is a bad player, but we're collectively frustrated that the #16 overall draft pick, who has all the physical upside in the world, can't seem to make explosive plays after 5 years in the league. We assume he'll command $15M/Yr+ due to his consistently untapped "upside" ... and we collectively don't want to pay it.

 

Hope this helps give the perspective you need. This seems to be a common theme, at least with my group of well educated Bills Fan friends.

 

Thanks for the post, but I disagree.  Increasingly, I'm coming to understand that Edmunds is playing the position you're talking about.   In most of the sets he plays in, he isn't asked to be a run stopping lineback like Brown or Pos or Roquan Smith.   His role isn't "stop the run and drop back in a zone some of the time."   His role is very much different.  His role in the run game is to run down the ball carrier if he breaks past the line of scrimmage.   Hamlin and Taron Johnson are asked to make more tackles in the backfield than Edmunds is.   The Bills don't want Edmunds in the backfield.   He's the first line of defense in a the safety net that is designed to stop big plays, and he does that very well.  In the Bills defense, tackling the ball five yards downfield IS a win, because it's not 15 yards downfield.   It's exactly what the Bills want if the defensive line couldn't hold the line.  

 

He's not reasonably strong in coverage; he's great in coverage.   Not because he gets pass breakups or INTs; he's great in coverage because he occupies more space in the zone than any other linebacker in the league, because his combination of length, speed, and quickness is unmatched in the league. 

 

The result of all of this is that to the uninformed fan, like me, he doesn't look spectacular.   He doesn't get sacks, he doesn't get tackles for loss, he doesn't get INTs.  He is, however, absolutely perfect for the way McDermott and Frazier want to play defense.  

[LeGOATski]

7 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Nobody expects Edmunds to be perfect. Milano made plays later in the game. Edmunds did not.

Those of us who are Edmunds skeptics have praised his play up until GB. 

Why can't the Edmunds apologists criticize him when he plays poorly?

You realise you're quoting a post that criticised him, right?

 

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I definitely agree that his value is in pass defense, elite potential there, but I just don’t think the drop off from Edmunds to Milano-clone Bernard or a draft pick is a game changer.   The DL is the engine, and we have a loaded CB room, with one of the best LB’s in the NFL locked down.  
 

Mid-high teens per year may be what we’re willing to do, but I’d rather have two undersized speed/quickness LB’s behind a heavily invested in DL, than a freak in Edmunds occupying that much cap space. 

I've been saying for months that Poyer is gone.   Frankly, I'm not even sure about Oliver.   I also think the Bills didn't extend Edmunds because they didn't have the cap room.  They want to keep a reasonable reserve.   Cap will go up next year, Bills will get guys to restructure, and I think Edmunds will be a priority.  

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I've been saying for months that Poyer is gone.   Frankly, I'm not even sure about Oliver.   I also think the Bills didn't extend Edmunds because they didn't have the cap room.  They want to keep a reasonable reserve.   Cap will go up next year, Bills will get guys to restructure, and I think Edmunds will be a priority.  

Id agree Poyer is gone.  We may offer him a short term deal, but we’ll see. 
 

Im also not sold on Oliver at the price we’d likely have to pay.   Give me more big body DT’s unless he turns into Aaron Donald-lite, which he has not so far.  (Injuries, I know I know..)

[BillsFan130]

13 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

In run defense just okay. None of the big runs were his fault. Did see him getting off blocks that two years ago he would have just been swallowed up by, but at other times he got squared up and stalemated. In coverage he looked his normal self - his presence forces the ball to the sidelines a lot.

 

EDIT: His tackling wasn't very good this game overall. Pad level way too high.

 

Bernard won't hold up inside. Milano is really bad when he's forced to spill blocks. It's just not their game.

Don’t you want to see more plays from him though?

 

Sure we can break down the Xs and Os and his responsibilities and all of that .

 

But was there one play that was like , “wow nice play by Edmunds “.?

 

I get he does a lot of underrated things.

 

But I think his success as a run defender heavily depends on the guys up front, (like most LBs of course) and he just doesn’t seem to make many things happen on his own. 

 

[Roundybout]

3 hours ago, Bandito said:

Roquan Smith who is better was just traded. Things like this happen. It is a business. He can be replaced. 

 

 

 

Smith is better in run defense but he's worse than Edmunds against the pass game. 

[LeGOATski]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Don’t you want to see more plays from him though?

 

Sure we can break down the Xs and Os and his responsibilities and all of that .

 

But was there one play that was like , “wow nice play by Edmunds “.?

 

I get he does a lot of underrated things.

 

But I think his success as a run defender heavily depends on the guys up front, (like most LBs of course) and he just doesn’t seem to make many things happen on his own. 

 

The tip ball that Milano almost intercepted. That was an obvious "wow nice play by Edmunds."

 

How do you forget that. The game was only yesterday.

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

The tip ball that Milano almost intercepted. That was an obvious "wow nice play by Edmunds."

 

How do you forget that. The game was only yesterday.

I remember the almost INT, I don’t remember Edmunds tipping it.

I will stand corrected on that one play then if you’re telling me he tipped it

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Don’t you want to see more plays from him though?

 

Sure we can break down the Xs and Os and his responsibilities and all of that .

 

But was there one play that was like , “wow nice play by Edmunds “.?

 

I get he does a lot of underrated things.

 

But I think his success as a run defender heavily depends on the guys up front, (like most LBs of course) and he just doesn’t seem to make many things happen on his own. 

 

Nobody does when it comes to run defense - that's the thing most fans don't understand. Every player is responsible for a specific gap pre-snap. Based on what their post-snap read is that gap can change, but without 11 guys doing what they're suppose to be doing big plays don't happen. I think that's what gets lost here. Everyone thinks its "see ball get ball" when that couldn't be further from the truth. Also keep in mind we hardly ever blitz him whereas you see more negative plays from backers on teams like the ravens or steelers because they send those guys more frequently.

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Don’t you want to see more plays from him though?

 

Sure we can break down the Xs and Os and his responsibilities and all of that .

 

But was there one play that was like , “wow nice play by Edmunds “.?

 

I get he does a lot of underrated things.

 

But I think his success as a run defender heavily depends on the guys up front, (like most LBs of course) and he just doesn’t seem to make many things happen on his own. 

 

Seems like a logical spot from which to form opinions about his performance. Can't help but notice how dismissive you are of understanding how our defense works.  

 

Carry on with your "wow, nice play" system of player evaluation.  

 

 

[BillsFan130]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

Nobody does when it comes to run defense - that's the thing most fans don't understand. Every player is responsible for a specific gap pre-snap. Based on what their post-snap read is that gap can change, but without 11 guys doing what they're suppose to be doing big plays don't happen. I think that's what gets lost here. Everyone thinks its "see ball get ball" when that couldn't be further from the truth. Also keep in mind we hardly ever blitz him whereas you see more negative plays from backers on teams like the ravens or steelers because they send those guys more frequently.

I am not even talking about just the run game.

 

I am talking about the pass game as well.

 

When was the last time he had an interception?

 

Serious question.  I think he got one last September against the Texans? That’s the last I remember .

 

Forced fumble? Recovered fumble ?

Just now, Jauronimo said:

Seems like a logical spot from which to form opinions about his performance. Can't help but notice how dismissive you are of understanding how our defense works.  

 

Carry on with your "wow, nice play" system of player evaluation.  

 

 

Why does Milano seem to make big play after big play game after game if it’s just based on “system “?

 

Leslie Frazier said it himself he wants to see more “splash plays” from Edmunds, so  I’m not really sure what you are getting at here.

[HoofHearted]

Just now, BillsFan130 said:

I am not even talking about just the run game.

 

I am talking about the pass game as well.

 

When was the last time he had an interception?

 

Serious question.  I think he got one last September against the Texans? That’s the last I remember .

 

Forced fumble? Recovered fumble ?

 

If that's the measurement for success then I guess Tre White isn't a very good player either since he only had 1 INT last year. Try to look past the stats and see the actual impact he has on how a game is being played/called by our opponents.

[Shaw66]

19 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Id agree Poyer is gone.  We may offer him a short term deal, but we’ll see. 
 

Im also not sold on Oliver at the price we’d likely have to pay.   Give me more big body DT’s unless he turns into Aaron Donald-lite, which he has not so far.  (Injuries, I know I know..)

I would simply love to be in the room listening to Beane talk about he's going to manage personnel over the next 12 months.   It's hugely complicated, and the decisions are vital to the success of the team. 

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

If that's the measurement for success then I guess Tre White isn't a very good player either since he only had 1 INT last year. Try to look past the stats and see the actual impact he has on how a game is being played/called by our opponents.

It’s not purely a measurement of success, but it’s an obvious issue for Edmunds in terms of not making enough impact plays.

 

Leslie Frazier LITERALLY said he needs more splash plays from Edmunds, so I have no idea how you guys can possibly defend him on that

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

If that's the measurement for success then I guess Tre White isn't a very good player either since he only had 1 INT last year. Try to look past the stats and see the actual impact he has on how a game is being played/called by our opponents.

And also. before his injury, tre white since 2017 had the most INTs in the 4th quarter 

 

Just a FYI there

Edited November 1, 2022 by BillsFan130

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I am not even talking about just the run game.

 

I am talking about the pass game as well.

 

When was the last time he had an interception?

 

Serious question.  I think he got one last September against the Texans? That’s the last I remember .

 

Forced fumble? Recovered fumble ?

Why does Milano seem to make big play after big play game after game if it’s just based on “system “?

 

Leslie Frazier said it himself he wants to see more “splash plays” from Edmunds, so  I’m not really sure what you are getting at here.

Most of your points demonstrated a clear lack of understanding about Edmunds responsibilities in this defense.  You identified supposed mistakes that were classic examples of him executing his responsibilities.  Instead of reflect for a moment that perhaps your opinions need reevaluation you've dismissed it all and moved on to "splash plays", the "Wow nice play" system, and interception stats.  This isn't a discussion, its a crusade. 

 

Check out linebacker stats when you have a moment.  Devin White has one INT in his career. Roquan Smith has one forced fumble in his career. Is this really the point you want to make? 

[BillsFan130]

11 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Most of your points demonstrated a clear lack of understanding about Edmunds responsibilities in this defense.  You identified supposed mistakes that were classic examples of him executing his responsibilities.  Instead of reflect for a moment that perhaps your opinions need reevaluation you've dismissed it all and moved on to "splash plays", the "Wow nice play" system, and interception stats.  This isn't a discussion, its a crusade. 

 

Check out linebacker stats when you have a moment.  Devin White has one INT in his career. Roquan Smith has one forced fumble in his career. Is this really the point you want to make? 

I acknowledged it and I disagree with the poster on some of his responsibilities .

 

It’s also not a crusade. I mentioned about 3 times in this thread he’s had a pretty good year up to this point. (With the exception of last game)

 

When did I ever say Devin white and smith were good?

 

White is on the verge of being benched, and Roquan smith is one of the most overrated players in football.

 

Ask bear fans/management how they feel about Roquan smith

 

 

[Jauronimo]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I acknowledged it and I disagree with the poster on some of his responsibilities .

 

It’s also not a crusade. I mentioned about 3 times in this thread he’s had a pretty good year up to this point. (With the exception of last game)

 

When did I ever say Devin white and smith were good?

 

White is on the verge of being benched, and Roquan smith is one of the most overrated players in football.

 

Ask bear fans/management how they feel about Roquan smith

 

 

Will do.  Ask the rest of the league how they feel about Edmunds.