Is There So Little Love for Tremaine Edmunds?

[Patrick Duffy]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Edmunds has had his issues in 2020 and 2021. He has never been as bad as his detractors suggest but he has also never been as good as his very vociferous supporters sometimes claim. The truth the last two years has been somewhere in the middle. In 2022 he has been one of the Bills best players and if he keeps this pace up has a legit shot at all pro votes. Whether you look at the eye test, the pure numbers or the advanced analytics they all back that up. 

 

Yup I agree....although I have seen quite a few post not long ago posters claimed his big improvement in play is due to "it's expected because it's a contract year". Have seen that statement posted multiple times and can't believe how one could in all honesty come to that conclusion....

 

I don't see how one can refuse to acknowledge the complete revamp of Bills Dline with addition of Von Miller along with how HUGE the improvement is/has been playing, also could say it's best Dline in Buffalo has had in a very long time..especially pass rush/pressure the QB...

 

How could one not clearly see the way Dline has been killing it up front not a big factor in making Edmunds job so much easier? I mean this is the best Dline Edmunds has ever had in front of him since he's been a Bill. I can't see how one refuses to state the obvious and comes up with he's improved because "it's a contract year" and being serious/honest saying it. So guess it must be some other agenda or something 

[SoCal Deek]

This isn’t complicated. Edmunds problems are due to his strengths. While his tall, athletic frame make him ideal in space, those same physical proportions give him trouble in a crowd, and in one on one tackling. I’ve generally been a detractor but it looks to me like they’ve been working on his tackling technique. He has trouble getting his pads to be lower than the guy he’s taking on and therefore often loses the leverage battle you hear so much about.

[Patrick Duffy]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

This isn’t complicated. Edmunds problems are due to his strengths. While his tall, athletic frame make him ideal in space, those same physical proportions give him trouble in a crowd, and in one on one tackling. I’ve generally been a detractor but it looks to me like they’ve been working on his tackling technique. He has trouble getting his pads to be lower than the guy he’s taking on and therefore often loses the leverage battle you hear so much about.

 

I have seen him make some good one on one tackles this season. Some of them being big time hits. So not sure about that

[SoCal Deek]

14 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

I have seen him make some good one on one tackles this season. Some of them being big time hits. So not sure about that

If you read my entire post you’ll see where I mentioned his improvement this season. 

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

This isn’t complicated. Edmunds problems are due to his strengths. While his tall, athletic frame make him ideal in space, those same physical proportions give him trouble in a crowd, and in one on one tackling. I’ve generally been a detractor but it looks to me like they’ve been working on his tackling technique. He has trouble getting his pads to be lower than the guy he’s taking on and therefore often loses the leverage battle you hear so much about.

I agree about this.   Prior to this season, it was very unusual to see him get low enough AND be in position to drive into a ball carrier with his shoulders.   This year, he looks different.   He still isn't a classic wrap n roll tackler, but he's definitely lower, and now that he's lower, he seems to be missing tackles less.  

 

Plus, here's a pure guess on my part, but this tackling issue is probably just larger than tackling.  I would guess that Edmunds came to the NFL less well-prepared, fundamentally, than a lot of guys.  He was young, that's for sure.  I know his dad coached him and all, but a guy that big and agile had to be tackling guys in high school, and maybe even in college, just by overwhelming ball carriers.  He was bigger, stronger, faster.   I'd guess that the details of footwork, for example, were not nearly as critical to his success at lower levels than for a guy like Bernard, who apparently really studied the game to achieve what he did in college.  I would be surprised if there weren't a lot of fundamental issues that he's had to learn, including reading offenses.  

 

This season, we may be seeing his emergence after years of growth.  McDermott and Beane may think that we've only just begun to see what he can do.   I don't know, obviously, but he certainly seems to be a better player this season.  If he's just coming into his prime now, Beane will write the check.

 

 

[Saxum]

4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

This board is going to melt down when he does sign.    

 

This board is going to melt down when he does or does not sign and in both cases Beane will be blamed.  Some posters will blame him either way.

[Buddo]

I don't think Edmunds makes the amount of impact plays he could do, simply because he isn't tasked with making them. He's made a number of effective blitzes over the years, and if he does blitz, it's more often than not successful in at least disrupting the opponents scripted play.

 

Frazier and McDermott like to use him to get in the QBs eyeline, making them think (some) passing avenues aren't open. I think they also want him as a sort of safety valve of the front seven, as others have pointed out, better than me, where he's the guy who has to stop things developing into big plays.

 

Generally, the Bills D has performed better when he's been available.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Bills look to re-sign him. In fact, I expect them to. My biggest concerns are with how much he might have to be paid to stay. I think his reputation around the NFL, is far greater than it is on this MB, and he's not going to come as cheaply as Milano, at all.

 

We don't even remotely have a 'like for like' replacement on the roster, and if he does go, I think we will be having to change how the D plays - as we had to when he was injured the other year.

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

 

To claim that Edmunds "is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage," would have been an exaggeration two years ago. He's certainly had some disappointing play in the past, but this season, he has been playing exceptionally well, and has become an above average LB (I would say better than that), and an intrinsic element to a very good defense. 

 

Your criticism of him not only ignores any improvements he has made (and they seem pretty undeniable to me), but it borders on disdain. You've gone as far as to somehow hold his exceptional athleticism against him, implying that he doesn't know how to use his own athletic ability. You post with the confidence of someone who has watched his play closely, but your observations just don't line up with what he has done in 2022. It seems like you were "pretty convinced" before the season started, and are not willing to reassess the player based on his current level of play.

That's the opposite of what I've done. He's a world class athlete and I acknowledge that. What i said was his athleticism is all he has going for him. As for his height - yes I also believe that is a problem, because he has very poor technique and doesn't get low enough on blocks or tackles to use the leverage that his length would provide and instead it works against him.

As for his play being markedly better this year, it's an improvement over the last two years, but only in results -  results that can be explained by the play of the Dline in front of him. Edmunds is still making the same soft tackles, still getting caught in the garbage, still making mistakes in coverage, still taking incorrect first steps, etc.

I will absolutely agree I was "pretty convinced" before the season. I've been pretty convinced for 4 years. However, I would absolutely change my opinion of him if he gave me reason to, just like I did with Allen years ago.

He hasn't, and I'm betting he won't 5 seasons into the league.

Edited November 4, 2022 by BullBuchanan

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, Buddo said:

I don't think Edmunds makes the amount of impact plays he could do, simply because he isn't tasked with making them. He's made a number of effective blitzes over the years, and if he does blitz, it's more often than not successful in at least disrupting the opponents scripted play.

 

Frazier and McDermott like to use him to get in the QBs eyeline, making them think (some) passing avenues aren't open. I think they also want him as a sort of safety valve of the front seven, as others have pointed out, better than me, where he's the guy who has to stop things developing into big plays.

 

Generally, the Bills D has performed better when he's been available.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Bills look to re-sign him. In fact, I expect them to. My biggest concerns are with how much he might have to be paid to stay. I think his reputation around the NFL, is far greater than it is on this MB, and he's not going to come as cheaply as Milano, at all.

 

We don't even remotely have a 'like for like' replacement on the roster, and if he does go, I think we will be having to change how the D plays - as we had to when he was injured the other year.

Dodson showed up on the stats sheet nearly identical to a typical Edmunds game when he spot started for him this year. I don't think Dodson is the answer, but I think it's telling that we didn't get exploited at a significantly higher rate while he was there. He did make one big whiff of a coverage play that I saw.

I think Edmunds' replacement comes in the 1st round next year. We could still use a Kuechly.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Dodson showed up on the stats sheet nearly identical to a typical Edmunds game when he spot started for him this year. I don't think Dodson is the answer, but I think it's telling that we didn't get exploited at a significantly higher rate while he was there. He did make one big whiff of a coverage play that I saw.

I think Edmunds' replacement comes in the 1st round next year. We could still use a Kuechly.

Well, one game isn't much to go on, but that's an interesting point.  McDermott's defense doesn't rely (much) on stars.  Obviously, if McD thinks a good solid talent - like Milano - could fill the middle, they won't spend $20 million a year to keep him.  

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

If you read my entire post you’ll see where I mentioned his improvement this season. 

I did read entire post. Of course he's improved. I didn't say or imply you denied such improvement. I specifically referred to the part of your post that said, "he has trouble with one on one tackling". That's why I put that particular sentence from your post in bold. Not sure how you must have misinterpreted that or if you  may have mixed my post up with a different person? Anyways....just wanted to clarify....

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes. 

 

And the fundamental point that people seem to miss is that this is a bend-don't-break defense and not a big play defense.   Edmunds' critics complain that he doesn't make big plays, but in the middle of this defense, that's not his job.   His job is to make sure the defense doesn't break.  That means he plays a more passive role, cleaning up for the d line when the d line is unable to make a play, roaming the middle so that the ball goes deep or outside, where the playmakers are.  

 

It's funny how people argue with the results.   Bills are third in yards allowed per game this season, and since Edmunds arrived they have finished 14th once, and third, second, and first.  How could that be if the middle linebacker has no instincts and can't tackle?  If he's that bad, when they replace him with a real linebacker, offenses will go three and out all day long.  It will be shut-out heaven.   

Ok so during those last 2 plays in the KC (13 seconds) game, TE was doing what he always does roaming the middle of the field in that "bend don't break" zone.  Then everything broke.  What's the point of bending if you're going to eventually break. We had 4 straight years of "bend don't break" in the early 90's. How'd that work out?

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Ok so during those last 2 plays in the KC (13 seconds) game, TE was doing what he always does roaming the middle of the field in that "bend don't break" zone.  Then everything broke.  What's the point of bending if you're going to eventually break. We had 4 straight years of "bend don't break" in the early 90's. How'd that work out?

I feel like we've been running "Bend Don't Break" most of my life and they always break when it matters.

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, Patrick Duffy said:

I did read entire post. Of course he's improved. I didn't say or imply you denied such improvement. I specifically referred to the part of your post that said, "he has trouble with one on one tackling". That's why I put that particular sentence from your post in bold. Not sure how you must have misinterpreted that or if you  may have mixed my post up with a different person? Anyways....just wanted to clarify....

 

 

It’s all good. What I mentioned is that it appears he’s gotten some technical coaching on his tackling technique. He still tends to go in too high at times, which I believe is his biggest flaw, I see him learning to use leverage more and more. With that said, while his tackling has improved against running backs, he still struggles mightily when engaged by an offensive lineman. Again here, I think it’s a center of gravity (leverage) problem. 

[Nephilim17]

In a passing league, you obviously want to allocate a good chunk of the limited capital to the D line but how much more major money should go to the LB corps?

First, let's split the difference and say Edmunds is good (not bad or even mediocre) but good to very good.

 

How much is a good to very good MLB worth in a passing league when you have to pay a franchise QB? 

What's the cap not just on Tremaine, but the positional value? I'm just ballparking, but when you have to pay Josh, the men who keep him upright and catch his passes, I think MLB might have a cap of maybe, what $12-$14 million tops?

What do others think? Question 2 is: will Tremaine settle for what you think the cap on the position of MLB is worth? We've seen many a Bill leave for greener ($) pastures.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Nephilim17

[BarleyNY]

12 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

In a passing league, you obviously want to allocate a good chunk of the limited capital to the D line but how much more major money should go to the LB corps?

First, let's split the difference and say Edmunds is good (not bad or even mediocre) but good to very good.

 

How much is a good to very good MLB worth in a passing league when you have to pay a franchise QB? 

What's the cap not just on Tremaine, but the positional value? I'm just ballparking, but when you have to pay Josh, the men who keep him upright and catch his passes, I think MLB might have a cap of maybe, what $12-$14 million tops?

What do others think? Question 2 is: will Tremaine settle for what you think the cap on the position of MLB is worth? We've seen many a Bill leave for greener ($) pastures.

Positional importance is a big factor IMO. To pay a MLB large, they’ve got to be a very special player. Then it can be worth it. It’s just a really high bar for that position. 
 

The top MLBs will be getting $17M-$20M AAV. Edmunds has really taken a step forward this season and that’s obviously great.  But the downside is that he can demand a bigger contract. The Bills couldn’t come to an agreement with him before he took that step so I don’t know how they’ll do it now. I also worry about paying him a lot more than Milano as it could cause issues there. Milano has been the better player for longer. Getting leapfrogged by a guy with one season of play at that level would not sit right with most players. 

[GoBills808]

Where the argument against paying Edmunds devolves into because it might hurt Milano's feelings, I think, is a good place to stop.

[Einstein]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In 2022 he has been one of the Bills best players and if he keeps this pace up has a legit shot at all pro votes. Whether you look at the eye test, the pure numbers or the advanced analytics they all back that up. 

 

PFF enters the chat with a strong “disagree”.

 

He’s not even in the top 15 of LB’s in their grading. Milano is #6 overall though.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

PFF enters the chat with a strong “disagree”.

 

He’s not even in the top 15 of LB’s in their grading. Milano is #6 overall though.

 

He is their 8th highest graded coverage linebacker. Milano is #1. 

 

Edmunds's overall PFF score is dragged down a bit by his run defense. But I think all pro voters are smart enough to realise it is 2022. Being a thumper in the run game is the cherry on top for a linebacker. It matters way less than the other elements.

[Bronxbomber21]

I just didn't understand why Buffalo refused to go 3 LBs no matter how many yards the packers were getting on the ground they were staying in nickel