Is There So Little Love for Tremaine Edmunds?

[Eastport bills]

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

It all depends on his contract demands. You can’t have a meaningful discussion about whether or not Edmunds will be here without discussing his contract value. His demands obviously have not lined up with the value the Bills put on him. I think another team will pay him more and it’ll be up to him whether he stays for less or goes somewhere else for the last nickel. Since it’s gotten to this point I suspect the latter. 

It sounds about right, but if he keeps playing like the 1st half and they go to the promised land , they might up their offer. After all, he’s 24.

[Dopey]

49 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Based on some of the projections floating around social media, looks like Edmunds is going to command somewhere between $20 -$25 million a year minimum in free agency.

 

In other words, enjoy him while it last because there's no way Beane is ponying up that type of cash for him, nor should he to keep this team in SB contention in the foreseeable future.

I probably wouldn’t pay that much. That’s not an indictment on his play, just cap reality. He’s definitely someone our staff would love to keep. Again, probably not at that price. 

[VaMilBill]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

Is it Kelce's 6 TDs and 475 yards across 5 games against us during Edmunds' time here or is it something else that leads you to this opinion?
 

Edmunds isn’t covering Kelce every play. That’s a defense issue. Plus elite players are impossible to eliminate. Hence making them elite

[Rocky Landing]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

No it's not an accident that he is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage.

Everything that makes Edmunds great are the tools he was born with. Everything that makes him terrible is what he has done with them. If you combine those two things together, you get a middle of the road talent whose raw athleticism bails him out enough to make up for below average ability in most other facets of his game.

I'm pretty convinced that if he were 4-5" shorter, he would be a significantly more impactful player with otherwise no increase in skill simply because he has no idea how to use his body to gain leverage during contact. He's like the Tyler Myers of the NFL.

 

This take isn't even rational.

[Brand J]

If Edmunds was a thorn in our biggest competitor’s side - the Chiefs - then he’d be a must re-sign. The fact that no one can point to a single play he has made against that team, in the last 5 games, that made you leap out of your seat, lessens his value in my eyes.
If he’s as easily manipulated by Mahomes as all the other defenders in the league, what exactly is it you guys want to hold onto? Why pay him a contract that exceeds Milano’s AAV? This is my biggest criticism with Edmunds. He doesn’t make many of those plays that pop off the screen - against the Chiefs or any other team.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

This take isn't even rational.

your rebuttal is a little thin…

[BullBuchanan]

23 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

I gotta say I’m not the biggest Edmunds fan, but his strengths are perfect matchups for the Chiefs and the Ravens. I really think we need to keep him. 
 

yeah he doesn’t make the splashy plays, but he covers up lanes and can keep a QB from making a back breaking play or a RB coming out or the backfield from ripping off a big gain

 

 

1 minute ago, VaMilBill said:

Edmunds isn’t covering Kelce every play. That’s a defense issue. Plus elite players are impossible to eliminate. Hence making them elite

You need to make up your mind because the case you're making for edmunds is that he helps against Kelce, but yet Kelce has absolutely destroyed the Bills since he's been here, so obviously he isn't helping that much.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Dopey said:

That’s not all on Edmunds. You know better. We gave up 20 points to KC last game. Only the colts gave up less this year to KC. By the way, wasn’t it Milano that gave up the game winning td to Kelce in the playoffs last year? I’m assuming that’s one of the 6 TDs you’re  referencing . Cuz that’s not on Edmunds. The excuses were “it’s Kelce, he does that to everyone “. What a ridiculous way to try and blame Edmunds, and Edmunds only for that BS stat. 

I never said it was. I'm simply countering the ridiculous argument that Edmunds who in his career has allowed a 93, 76, 114, 106 and 84.5 Passer Rating makes us sitgnificantly more prepared to stop Kelce, who averages almost 100 yards a game and over a TD a game when playing against Edmunds. When playing against other temas he averages 71.3 YPG and less than 0.5 TDs per game. Edmunds is below repalcement level against Kelce - that's just data in black and white.

 

4 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

This take isn't even rational.

What part(s) do you need explained? You may disagree with it, but it's absolutely rational.

[Dr.Sack]

Edmunds is key to winning this year. I’d like to see him resigned.

[LABILLBACKER]

7 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Based on some of the projections floating around social media, looks like Edmunds is going to command somewhere between $20 -$25 million a year minimum in free agency.

 

In other words, enjoy him while it last because there's no way Beane is ponying up that type of cash for him, nor should he to keep this team in SB contention in the foreseeable future.

Did those projections include cannibas? 20-25M is hilarious. 

[LeGOATski]

9 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Did those projections include cannibas? 20-25M is hilarious. 

Based on the current top LB contracts, Tremaine would get 15-20...20-21 if he wants to be the highest paid LB in the league, which I doubt, but you never know.

[LABILLBACKER]

22 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Based on the current top LB contracts, Tremaine would get 15-20...20-21 if he wants to be the highest paid LB in the league, which I doubt, but you never know.

Good luck to him chasing that dream contract but if true that's all the more reason we're letting him walk.

[benderbender]

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, the contributions of all of the guys around him are never in doubt.   White, Jacks, Elam, Benford, Johnson, Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin.  Isn't interesting the oversized, hyper-speedy man in the middle who has started since day one of his rookie season is the only one in the defensive backfield whose contributions are questioned?   

Not really. Earlier in his career was a pro bowler. His play made it clear. Now it must be explained in a debriefing every week how his size did something, but wouldn't allow him to wrap up a tackle or escape a block. 

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

You seem to think that's an accident, or that the Bills have players all around covering for his weaknesses or something.  Do you really think McBeane would have started him for five years if that were the case?  

Yes, he clearly has weaknesses. The staff has made peace with his deficiencies and shuffled the defense to compensate. Thus the "he only does what's asked of him" line that we get so often. If what was asked of him was to take one side of the field while Milano took the other, this wouldn't be a topic. Also we traded up to get him. So of course he would get every opportunity to prove McBeane right. And early on, it looked like a home run. My main issue with Edmunds, is that he doesn't seem to have progressed or gained instinct. I want him to succeed. Perhaps it's the Baker Mayfield scenario where he came into the league at his ceiling and I'm just being unreasonable. But that's why I bristle at calls for him to be resigned at some crippling cap number or downplaying his whiffs. In the end, one can only be so upset with a Top 2 defense on a 6-1 team.

[GunnerBill]

17 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

Edmunds isn’t covering Kelce every play. That’s a defense issue. Plus elite players are impossible to eliminate. Hence making them elite

 

In fact he is covering him very rarely. It has normally been Milano or Taron.

[LABILLBACKER]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In fact he is covering him very rarely. It has normally been Milano or Taron.

And what does that tell you. It speaks volumes why you rarely if ever see Edmunds guard Kelce 1 on 1. Even though he's the exact same size & speed of Kelce?  Makes absolutely no sense. Such a counterintuitive defensive strategy????

Edited November 4, 2022 by LABILLBACKER

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

And what does that tell you. It speaks volumes why you rarely if ever see Edmunds guard Kelce 1 on 1. Even though he the exact same size & speed of Kelce?  Makes absolutely no sense. Such a counterintuitive defensive strategy????

 

Tells you the Bills play zone defense and the TE is rarely the responsibility of the MLB in their scheme?

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, benderbender said:

The staff has made peace with his deficiencies and shuffled the defense to compensate. Thus the "he only does what's asked of him" line that we get so often. If what was asked of him was to take one side of the field while Milano took the other, this wouldn't be a topic. Also we traded up to get him. So of course he would get every opportunity to prove McBeane right. 

I think this is primarily making things up to fit your argument.   First, the Bills' ALWAYS ask players to do what they can do well and not to do the things they can't do well.   That's part of the system.  But the evidence is very clear that the Bills always move on from players who aren't getting the job done - they've done it with multiple offensive linemen, with multiple defensive linemen, etc., and it's naive to think that the Bills would have put up with sub-par play out of Edmunds for five years.  They would have moved on.  Zach Moss, Cody Ford, Harrison Philips all are evidence of that.  

 

It's all a question of money, as far as I can tell.  So long as the Bills want to play this style of defense, they'll be happy to have Edmunds in the middle, if they can afford him.  And if they keep him at $18 or $20 million, that will tell you that your perception of his deficiencies is flat out wrong.  

 

I remember what Doug Whaley said about the cap:  There's enough room for six big contracts:  QB, left tackle, and one more on offense, edge, corner, and one more on defense.   Josh, Dion, Stefon, Von, Tre, and someone on defense that you write a big check for.  More likely Edmunds than Oliver or than Poyer.  

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Tells you the Bills play zone defense and the TE is rarely the responsibility of the MLB in their scheme?

Yes. 

 

And the fundamental point that people seem to miss is that this is a bend-don't-break defense and not a big play defense.   Edmunds' critics complain that he doesn't make big plays, but in the middle of this defense, that's not his job.   His job is to make sure the defense doesn't break.  That means he plays a more passive role, cleaning up for the d line when the d line is unable to make a play, roaming the middle so that the ball goes deep or outside, where the playmakers are.  

 

It's funny how people argue with the results.   Bills are third in yards allowed per game this season, and since Edmunds arrived they have finished 14th once, and third, second, and first.  How could that be if the middle linebacker has no instincts and can't tackle?  If he's that bad, when they replace him with a real linebacker, offenses will go three and out all day long.  It will be shut-out heaven.   

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes. 

 

And the fundamental point that people seem to miss is that this is a bend-don't-break defense and not a big play defense.   Edmunds' critics complain that he doesn't make big plays, but in the middle of this defense, that's not his job.   His job is to make sure the defense doesn't break.  That means he plays a more passive role, cleaning up for the d line when the d line is unable to make a play, roaming the middle so that the ball goes deep or outside, where the playmakers are.  

 

It's funny how people argue with the results.   Bills are third in yards allowed per game this season, and since Edmunds arrived they have finished 14th once, and third, second, and first.  How could that be if the middle linebacker has no instincts and can't tackle?  If he's that bad, when they replace him with a real linebacker, offenses will go three and out all day long.  It will be shut-out heaven.   

 

Edmunds has had his issues in 2020 and 2021. He has never been as bad as his detractors suggest but he has also never been as good as his very vociferous supporters sometimes claim. The truth the last two years has been somewhere in the middle. In 2022 he has been one of the Bills best players and if he keeps this pace up has a legit shot at all pro votes. Whether you look at the eye test, the pure numbers or the advanced analytics they all back that up. 

[ColoradoBills]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:40 AM, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for the post, but I disagree.  Increasingly, I'm coming to understand that Edmunds is playing the position you're talking about.   In most of the sets he plays in, he isn't asked to be a run stopping lineback like Brown or Pos or Roquan Smith.   His role isn't "stop the run and drop back in a zone some of the time."   His role is very much different.  His role in the run game is to run down the ball carrier if he breaks past the line of scrimmage.   Hamlin and Taron Johnson are asked to make more tackles in the backfield than Edmunds is.   The Bills don't want Edmunds in the backfield.   He's the first line of defense in a the safety net that is designed to stop big plays, and he does that very well.  In the Bills defense, tackling the ball five yards downfield IS a win, because it's not 15 yards downfield.   It's exactly what the Bills want if the defensive line couldn't hold the line.  

 

He's not reasonably strong in coverage; he's great in coverage.   Not because he gets pass breakups or INTs; he's great in coverage because he occupies more space in the zone than any other linebacker in the league, because his combination of length, speed, and quickness is unmatched in the league. 

 

The result of all of this is that to the uninformed fan, like me, he doesn't look spectacular.   He doesn't get sacks, he doesn't get tackles for loss, he doesn't get INTs.  He is, however, absolutely perfect for the way McDermott and Frazier want to play defense.  

 

On 11/1/2022 at 6:15 PM, Shaw66 said:

This is the core misunderstanding of Edmunds role.   His job is not to make the big plays you're looking for.   His job is not to blitz, so he doesn't get sacks.   His job is not to attack the line of scrimmage, so he doesn't get TFLs.  His job is to occupy a lot of territory and make tackles when they come to him.   By occupying a lot of space, he makes it easier for all of the pass defenders to do THEIR jobs.  

 

Bravo Shaw for trying to explain Edmunds' role in the Bills D.  I could have added more of your replies, but this is enough.

The Bills D uses Edmunds differently.  He's not a typical MLB.  He is continuously filling the middle in a 2 LB w/nickel roll.

That means not only covering the middle, but he has the responsibility to cover the weak side too.  He can do that with his

size and range.  

 

I do have to laugh a little about the GB game.  Edmunds had 13 solo tackles. 13.  The most he has ever had, and fans think he played

a bad game.  IF the Bills truly wanted to stop GB running the ball, they had 2 options.  They could have come out of the 2 deep and/or

they could have come out of the nickel.  They chose not to.  That choice caused Edmunds to have to chase down runners well

back from the LOS.  But he made a bunch of those plays that would of went for more yards if he failed.

 

I will admit I have been down on Edmunds when I have thought of him in a typical MLB role, but this year when the Bills are on D

I watch Edmunds' first move a lot more than I did in the past.  It shows where his responsibility is.  He is the guy that other teams

gameplan against to try to move him into bad spots or disguised roles.  I now think he is doing exactly what Frazier wants him to do

and he does a very good job at it.  It's one of the reasons that the TV commentators praise him so much.  They hear what the opposing

teams say about him week after week.  The space he takes up also allows the SS (Poyer) and others to run free and make a lot of the

splash plays that they do.

 

Whether or not he is re-signed in March is going to have a lot to do with the cap money and how much Edmunds and his agent want.

I think I'm not going out on a limb saying Edmunds is the priority signing over Poyer for a number of reasons.  My prediction is Edmunds

is signing for $15-16M per on a 5-year contract.  If he wants $19M+ he will have to get it somewhere else (and probably could).

 

This board is going to melt down when he does sign.    

[Rocky Landing]

22 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

No it's not an accident that he is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage.

Everything that makes Edmunds great are the tools he was born with. Everything that makes him terrible is what he has done with them. If you combine those two things together, you get a middle of the road talent whose raw athleticism bails him out enough to make up for below average ability in most other facets of his game.

I'm pretty convinced that if he were 4-5" shorter, he would be a significantly more impactful player with otherwise no increase in skill simply because he has no idea how to use his body to gain leverage during contact. He's like the Tyler Myers of the NFL.

 

 

16 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

 

 

What part(s) do you need explained? You may disagree with it, but it's absolutely rational.

To claim that Edmunds "is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage," would have been an exaggeration two years ago. He's certainly had some disappointing play in the past, but this season, he has been playing exceptionally well, and has become an above average LB (I would say better than that), and an intrinsic element to a very good defense. 

 

Your criticism of him not only ignores any improvements he has made (and they seem pretty undeniable to me), but it borders on disdain. You've gone as far as to somehow hold his exceptional athleticism against him, implying that he doesn't know how to use his own athletic ability. You post with the confidence of someone who has watched his play closely, but your observations just don't line up with what he has done in 2022. It seems like you were "pretty convinced" before the season started, and are not willing to reassess the player based on his current level of play.