How valuable is Hyde really?

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Fide Deo said:

I cannot understand why thread comments so often personally attack and are rude to OPs. It is contrary to the kind and generous reputation that Bills fans have around the league.

 

For a bye week, I thought this was a well-reasoned post. The OP acknowledges that we are a better team WITH Hyde. The question is how much more so, and if the value is there to keep him. Nobody disputes his past contributions on the field, nor the incredible leadership and presence he has brought to the team. However, the defense has been playing excellent ball without him.

 

Thank you for this post.

 

Well written and I appreciate that you see how the groupthink on this forum makes it nearly unbearable sometimes.

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Despite a much better pass rush, the Bills are allowing long passes at a higher rate.

 

How did you come to this conclusion? First i’ve heard this.

 

Only thing i’ve seen is that the Bills are giving up 0.3 more ay/a this year, though that is quite minuscule. 

[What a Tuel]

16 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Thank you for this post.

 

Well written and I appreciate that you see how the groupthink on this forum makes it nearly unbearable sometimes.

 

The question turns into whether you are this anti group think when the bills lose a game and the forum is miserable or do you pile on the negativity? That is probably where the hang up is. We know what its like on this forum when we lose, and we know the participants.

 

Edit for example:

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by What a Tuel

[Not at the table Karlos]

11 hours ago, KingBoots8 said:

I don’t think anyone is trading for a guy who can’t be used for a year 🤷‍♂️

I'm not agreeing with the OP but if you were to trade him you would do it in the off-season when you know more about his recovery. He's still under contract next year. 

[Einstein]

49 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Wrong, which is habitual for you.

 

All good posts start with an insult.

 

49 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

They targeted him five years ago by bringing him in. Then they again targeted him before the 2021 season by giving him a big new contract extension through 2023.

 

A 2 year extension that doesn’t put him in the top 20 of safeties money-wise is a “big” extension to you? I don’t personally see it that way. I think it was a moderate extension that gives them an out after 2 years.

 

49 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

At age 30, they made it very clear that they wanted him through 2023 in the most obvious and public way, by giving him a contract that even in the last year, 2023, would have cost $7M in dead cap money to get rid of him.

 

$7M in dead cap is not a lot. It is offset by regaining $11M in cap space. They save money by trading or cutting him, despite the dead cap.

 

This is called an “out” clause in the NFL and the Bills obviously structured it that way for a reason.

 

They also only gave him a 2 year deal for a reason.

 

49 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

You ignore this because it doesn't suit your dumb argument. 

 

I ignored it just like I “ignore” the fact that Hyde’s middle name is Richmond. It’s irrelevant to the discussion for all the reasons I listed above.

[Royale with Cheese]

11 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

We have to wait and see if the defense improves with his arrival.

 

If it doesn’t, well…

 

Our defense is already the best in the league.  Hyde and White are valuable to this defense.  

You already complained about the back up safety's in our defense.  You already have concerns with Elam.

 

These players have missed games on defense this year.  Edmunds, Bedford, Dane Jackson, Ed Oliver, Settle and Jordan Poyer.  I guess that means that none of these guys are valuable as well?

[Einstein]

49 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Good post.  

Teams cut aging injured good players for cap reasons all the time.  Tough decisions are coming up.  I don't see Hyde back next year.  

Whether they would be better with him now is a different question, I think they would.  But will they be the same or better off next year without him is a good question to ask. 

 

Thank you.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Draconator said:

I better go to urgent care, and get a mental heat warming test, because I can't believe I'm going to say this.

 

I'm giving @Einstein the benefit of the doubt.  

 

I don't think he's saying definitely get rid of Hyde. He's thinking out loud if maybe we are just as good without him and raising the possibility of moving on from him next year. 

 

Personally, we are just as good without Micah, but we would be giving close to 10 points per game (as opposed to the 16 points per game) with him in the lineup.  

 

Bingo!

 

What a breath of fresh air. It feels as if the cavalry of reasonable posters have stormed this thread to regain reasonable discussion.

 

As you pointed out, I am not preaching that we must get rid of Hyde. But I think it’s a fair question to ask how much worse we are really without him.

 

If you had asked me before the season how much worse we would be without him, I would have guessed significantly and noticeably worse in many ways.

 

I think many of us can agree that we don’t notice him gone (via broken coverages or bad plays by his replacement) as much as we may have thought we would have.

 

Which is a kudos to Beane for the depth he has has built and the coaching staff for their defensive scheme.

[Royale with Cheese]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

“Any fool can know, the point is to understand” - Albert Einstein

 

The single worst part of sport discussion forums is groupthink.

 

On this forum, groupthink coincides with an attack on anyone that gives even the slightest criticism of a current starter, coach, owner, or anyone affiliated with the team.

 

There is no room for understanding, predicting, analyzing and speaking truth to potentials departures. All room is taken up by the “knowing” crowd - those that “know” that another poster is wrong, should post less, etc. Your post above, in a nutshell.

 

Prior to the onslaught of “knowers” bashing my thread, several people had agreed with it. One deleted their post (they were one of the first responses), and another edited their post to say something different. This is because they don’t want to go against the crowd. Groupthink.

 

.

 

Oh quit with this "whoa is me"....you bring this all on yourself.

 

You only want replies with people who agree with you and play the victim when you are criticized.  

 

"They don't want to go against the crowd" lol???  The peer pressure is just so strong on a message board they're afraid to agree with you?

Holy S***

[gonzo1105]

If this is a topic about the Bills defenses success without having really 3 of our starters for periods of time than I think you can chalk it up to scheme by the coaching staff and their ability to coach up the defensive backs. 

 

It might also mean that we have a hell of a lot of depth in the secondary. 

[teef]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Oh quit with this "whoa is me"....you bring this all on yourself.

 

You only want replies with people who agree with you and play the victim when you are criticized.  

 

"They don't want to go against the crowd" lol???  The peer pressure is just so strong on a message board they're afraid to agree with you?

Holy S***

you know he loves it.  absolutely loves it.  how many times today do you think you'll see the term, "groupthink".  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

9 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Seeing it put this way begs the question. If cutting Hyde still would cost 7 million in dead money and keeping Hyde results in only $3.8 Million dollars more...do you not think Hyde is worth that extra 3.8 million? For his leadership, experience, knowledge of the defense, how he is viewed by his teammates and how he is in the community all while (assuming he heals properly) playing at an extremely high level? 

 

Cutting or trading a team leader, a guy has earned the "C" on his chest, a guy that was still playing extremely well when he got hurt...doing that over 3.8 million of cap space is an absolutely ridiculous idea. 

At the expense of whom?  Oliver? Edmunds? Poyer? Morse? Paying a 32 year safety coming off neck surgery $10.8M is difficult.  Hamlin costs less than $1M and is under contract through 2024.

That $3.8M wont make up all the money you need for Oliver and Edmunds but it helps.  Like it or not these are the hard decisions Beane is going to have to make now that Allen's contract balloons.  There are several restructures that can be done to open up cap space but there is a limit to the number of moves that can be made.  

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, teef said:

you know he loves it.  absolutely loves it.  how many times today do you think you'll see the term, "groupthink".  

 

His arrogance was a little shocking.  

 

The first time I interacted with Einstein, he was very firm that the Titans have a better team than the Bills.  Broke it down unit by unit...he was not backing down.

I should have known then the things to come.

[Virgil]

We’d be 6-0 if he were playing.  Valuable enough to me 

[Mango]

Hamlin has been a liability at times. Physically he is "fine" but her certainly seems to have issues with diagnosing plays as accurately or quickly as Hyde does. Maybe he will get there? But right now both safety back ups are full step down from their starters. 

 

I expect Hamlin to be better down the stretch once he is bracketed by a healthy Poyer, Tre, Dane, and Taron.

[teef]

24 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

His arrogance was a little shocking.  

 

The first time I interacted with Einstein, he was very firm that the Titans have a better team than the Bills.  Broke it down unit by unit...he was not backing down.

I should have known then the things to come.

well...you can't keep getting attention when you're question is answered and there's not much further to take a thread.  

[Nuncha]

I believe our secondary is so well coached, and the backups so ready to play, they could plug any NFL player in there and not drop off too much.   Two rookies started at corner and backups at both safety spots and those guys all held their own for the most part. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Azucho98

[WotAGuy]

White, Poyer and Hyde were all over Hopkins and he STILL caught that Hail Mary pass in AZ.  Get rid of all them bums. 

[Royale with Cheese]

12 minutes ago, teef said:

well...you can't keep getting attention when you're question is answered and there's not much further to take a thread.  

 

Yeah but what if it's not the answer you like.  You can just keep moving goal posts right?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It might have been worth watching but the evidence is increasingly in.

 

Despite a much better pass rush, the Bills are allowing long passes at a higher rate.

 

Hyde's injury has been compared to that of Eric Wood. There's a chance he may not ever play again. But sour grapes thinking isn't encompassed in clear thought. Losing him hurts a lot. The guys who are replacing him are doing so at replacement value, which is a good thing, but we're losing a lot here. A lot.

 

If he can return next year, and return at the same level, the Bills will likely be thrilled and keep him.

 

1st two games, with Hyde:  10 and 7 points allowed, 191 and 107 yards passing allowed, and 5 INTs filched by the Bills

 

Next four games, without him: 21, 20, 3 and 20 points allowed, 171, 134, 310 and 319 pass yards allowed, and 5 more INTs, in twice as many games

 

Is all that down to Hyde? No, of course not. But is he surely a factor? Hell, yeah.

 

Yeah - what are we losing without Hyde?  I dunno, tackling ability, ball skills, experience... general skill.