Not discrimination to refuse cake sale.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

And How about those no shoes no shirt no service signs…. 
 

Discrimination I tell ya!!! 

[T master]

On 10/25/2022 at 1:51 PM, Niagara Bill said:

(Please understand this is not sarcasm), trying to wrap my head around such rulings. 

So the California judge says religious beliefs is a good reason not to sell wedding cake to gay couple.

Where does that lead to by extension?

Can refuse any sale to gay couple...cup cakes, donuts? Or just the symbolic cake?

Can refuse to hire any gay or just married gay?

Can refuse to rent house to gay couple? 

Is the reverse also OK, that a gay merchant doesn't have to sell goods to religious group who do not support gay rights? Or is it just illegal to not discriminate based on religion.

Does gay also then extend to atheists, since they are not religious?

 

Just some thoughts on a Tuesday! It feels so offside to the US constitution.

 

Any serious commentary would be appreciated.

 

 

If a gay person because of their believes don't want to sell a straight person a cake WHO CARES ? No One !!

 

If a religious person because of their believes don't want to sell a gay person a cake WHO CARES ? The Gay community !!

 

So what you are asking is if one person has a belief that being gay is okay that's cool & should be accepted in all walks of life for every one, but if another believes that believing in their religious ways is okay their believes are not cool & shouldn't be excepted but be considered hateful thoughts if in disagreement & should change ?  

 

Shouldn't both opinions be okay after all this is America one should not over rule the other . If when i was a kid another kid didn't like me for what i liked or didn't i stayed away from them unless of course they came looking for a fight then game on but just go your own way what's the big deal ?

 

The only reason why this is a issue is because they are purposely trying to bring attention to the subject just go get your cake somewhere else i'm sure there is some one out there that will happily sell you a cake .

 

Is it wrong to believe in your religion ? Is it wrong to stand up for what you believe as a individual ? The gay community does but it's not right for the straight community or religious community to ?

 

Why does someones sexual orientation has to be brought into it EVERY TIME if that's your choice that's fine but if i choose a different set of beliefs or rules to follow it's not, don't push yours on me & try to make me look like the bad guy because of what i believe ? 

 

America has become way to freakin sensitive just live & let live !! 

 

If i decide to not pay my loans or bills & i go to a bank for a loan & they don't want to loan me the money because i have personally chosen to not pay my bills is that wrong of them to not loan me the money ?

 

If because i choose to drink & have wrecked my car numerous times & hurt people while doing so & they take my license or refuse me insurance because of my decision to drink is that wrong ?

 

There are things that are just out & out wrong & if done with hate or malice then okay that person is ignorant (which there are a lot of those in this world) & needs to be called on it,  but if it is just a difference of opinions of life styles & done because of their personal beliefs just move on life has way to much BS in it as it is don't add to it . 

 

This will piss off some people for sure but i'm just using this as a comparison  - in the grand scheme of things we were made (weather you believe in a higher power or not) to be man and women for a reason right ? Just like (for the sake of conversation) metric bolts & nuts were made this way for a reason & standard bolts & nuts for a reason as most things are made for a certain purpose .

 

They were made to fit their individual others to originally serve that purpose  BUT !! you can make a standard nut fit a metric bolt or visa versa and it will fit if forced & hold but that doesn't mean that is what its original intention was but it does work .

 

So just do what you want & unless justified due to some kind of malice or hatred just go about your business be happy & leave the other stuff lie life is to short !! 

[Niagara Bill]

13 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

And How about those no shoes no shirt no service signs…. 
 

Discrimination I tell ya!!! 

😉🤣

[Niagara Bill]

13 hours ago, T master said:

 

If a gay person because of their believes don't want to sell a straight person a cake WHO CARES ? No One !!

 

If a religious person because of their believes don't want to sell a gay person a cake WHO CARES ? The Gay community !!

 

So what you are asking is if one person has a belief that being gay is okay that's cool & should be accepted in all walks of life for every one, but if another believes that believing in their religious ways is okay their believes are not cool & shouldn't be excepted but be considered hateful thoughts if in disagreement & should change ?  

 

Shouldn't both opinions be okay after all this is America one should not over rule the other . If when i was a kid another kid didn't like me for what i liked or didn't i stayed away from them unless of course they came looking for a fight then game on but just go your own way what's the big deal ?

 

The only reason why this is a issue is because they are purposely trying to bring attention to the subject just go get your cake somewhere else i'm sure there is some one out there that will happily sell you a cake .

 

Is it wrong to believe in your religion ? Is it wrong to stand up for what you believe as a individual ? The gay community does but it's not right for the straight community or religious community to ?

 

Why does someones sexual orientation has to be brought into it EVERY TIME if that's your choice that's fine but if i choose a different set of beliefs or rules to follow it's not, don't push yours on me & try to make me look like the bad guy because of what i believe ? 

 

America has become way to freakin sensitive just live & let live !! 

 

If i decide to not pay my loans or bills & i go to a bank for a loan & they don't want to loan me the money because i have personally chosen to not pay my bills is that wrong of them to not loan me the money ?

 

If because i choose to drink & have wrecked my car numerous times & hurt people while doing so & they take my license or refuse me insurance because of my decision to drink is that wrong ?

 

There are things that are just out & out wrong & if done with hate or malice then okay that person is ignorant (which there are a lot of those in this world) & needs to be called on it,  but if it is just a difference of opinions of life styles & done because of their personal beliefs just move on life has way to much BS in it as it is don't add to it . 

 

This will piss off some people for sure but i'm just using this as a comparison  - in the grand scheme of things we were made (weather you believe in a higher power or not) to be man and women for a reason right ? Just like (for the sake of conversation) metric bolts & nuts were made this way for a reason & standard bolts & nuts for a reason as most things are made for a certain purpose .

 

They were made to fit their individual others to originally serve that purpose  BUT !! you can make a standard nut fit a metric bolt or visa versa and it will fit if forced & hold but that doesn't mean that is what its original intention was but it does work .

 

So just do what you want & unless justified due to some kind of malice or hatred just go about your business be happy & leave the other stuff lie life is to short !! 

I see your thinking, thanks for spending the time. 

I personally do not care if the bakery ever sells a cake. 

What I saw was people hiding behind religion, hating gays. But...extend that to other religious groups being denied..because of beliefs.

How does the bakery know the people are gay? Can not they just buy a cake from the bakery display without saying they are gay. Does the bakery post a sign for gays not to enter. Is it neon. Is it just these guys. If the lettering was pornographic they certainly have the right to deny a sale.

Business should be able to reject clients but they cannot use religion or protected status to do so. Can the Jewish owned flour mill refuse to sell to this bakery because of their religion.

Sorry, I cannot accept a sign in the window of a Muslim owned restaurant that Christians are not welcomed. Or maybe we just use a color code system.

 

[T master]

8 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

I see your thinking, thanks for spending the time. 

I personally do not care if the bakery ever sells a cake. 

What I saw was people hiding behind religion, hating gays. But...extend that to other religious groups being denied..because of beliefs.

How does the bakery know the people are gay? Can not they just buy a cake from the bakery display without saying they are gay. Does the bakery post a sign for gays not to enter. Is it neon. Is it just these guys. If the lettering was pornographic they certainly have the right to deny a sale.

Business should be able to reject clients but they cannot use religion or protected status to do so. Can the Jewish owned flour mill refuse to sell to this bakery because of their religion.

Sorry, I cannot accept a sign in the window of a Muslim owned restaurant that Christians are not welcomed. Or maybe we just use a color code system.

 

 

There is no need for signs that is then pointing fingers at certain people which one would think is discriminatory just leave it that way there is no preconceived notions .

 

It will be a person by person choice then if asked they can reply i just don't want to sell you what ever which i don't know how well that would go over but at least there is no pointing of fingers .

[Niagara Bill]

The subject is back. In Virginia a restaurant cancels the use of a meeting room based on the fact the group was a Christian extremists group. So now refusal of services is ok based on religion? The owner does not believe in their positions.

I don't have to bake a cake because it insults my religious beliefs, now is this the next step. Will this stand or is the slippery slope getting more grease?

[SoCal Deek]

51 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

The subject is back. In Virginia a restaurant cancels the use of a meeting room based on the fact the group was a Christian extremists group. So now refusal of services is ok based on religion? The owner does not believe in their positions.

I don't have to bake a cake because it insults my religious beliefs, now is this the next step. Will this stand or is the slippery slope getting more grease?

The terminology is interesting. Christian extremist? In the old days (like five years ago) would this have been called Orthodox Christian? 

[Niagara Bill]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The terminology is interesting. Christian extremist? In the old days (like five years ago) would this have been called Orthodox Christian? 

Awe Yeah, the old days...

[Irv]

Dude could have avoided all of this.  Just made a cake that tastes and looks like *****. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Irv

[B-Man]

2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

The subject is back. In Virginia a restaurant cancels the use of a meeting room based on the fact the group was a Christian extremists group. So now refusal of services is ok based on religion? The owner does not believe in their positions.

I don't have to bake a cake because it insults my religious beliefs, now is this the next step. Will this stand or is the slippery slope getting more grease?

 

 

No.

 

Again the Supreme Court was clear.

 

This restauranteer is breaking the law. Refusing to engage in his daily business and by discriminating against a specific group.

 

in ALL the cake cases, the baker DID serve gays in his shop daily and had nothing against anyone, he simply requested that he not be forced to participate in a ceremony that his religion did not recognize.

 

Yes, it can be a slippery slope, BUT in this case it is pretty easy to see the difference.

 

 

 

.

ADDED: By the by, you give yourself away with your "Christian Extremists group" quote.

 

It was the family Foundation.

 

and the Restaurant owner said that he disagree with their pro-life position and same sex marriage, positions held by tens of millions of Americans.

 

 

oooh, scary extremists !

 

 

.

Edited December 12, 2022 by B-Man

[Chef Jim]

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

No.

 

Again the Supreme Court was clear.

 

This restauranteer is breaking the law. Refusing to engage in his daily business and by discriminating against a specific group.

 

in ALL the cake cases, the baker DID serve gays in his shop daily and had nothing against anyone, he simply requested that he not be forced to participate in a ceremony that his religion did not recognize.

 

Yes, it can be a slippery slope, BUT in this case it is pretty easy to see the difference.

 

 

 

.

Help me understand this.  I am 10000% behind the bakeshop but a 10000% against the restaurant. Is there really a difference or is this my old fashioned conservative bias showing?  Is baking a cake that could have been picked up at the shop?  

[B-Man]

8 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Help me understand this.  I am 10000% behind the bakeshop but a 10000% against the restaurant. Is there really a difference or is this my old fashioned conservative bias showing?  Is baking a cake that could have been picked up at the shop?  

 

 

Jim, I believe that you see the difference as I outlined in my reply and as the Court spelled out.

 

There is Freedom of Religion in this country, no matter how much the Left hates it.

 

Where the cake is baked is unimportant IF it is being used for a ceremony that the baker is opposed to due to his/her religious beliefs.

 

While the Restaurant owner was refusing a religious group the use of his business.

 

 

It is all liberal grandstanding anyway.

 

Does he really think that in their daily business people who are against abortion (>50% of Americans) aren't eating there ??

 

Maybe he plans on questioning patrons at the door ?

 

 

The Baker doesn't care.

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by B-Man

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Jim, I believe that you see the difference as I outlined in my reply and as the Court spelled out.

 

There is Freedom of Religion in this country, no matter how much the Left hates it.

 

Where the cake is baked is unimportant IF it is being used for a ceremony that the baker is opposed to due to his/her religious beliefs.

 

While the Restaurant owner was refusing a religious group the use of his business.

 

 

It is all liberal grandstanding anyway. Does he really think that in their daily business people who are against abortion (>50% of Americans) aren't eating there ??

 

 

 

.

 

 

So refusing business due to religious beliefs is not a two way street?  If the restaurant refuses to cater the group at a church would that be ok?  It seems very hypocritical to me. 

[B-Man]

5 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

So refusing business due to religious beliefs is not a two way street?  If the restaurant refuses to cater the group at a church would that be ok?  It seems very hypocritical to me. 

 

 

I am not sure where you are getting this interpretation.

 

My first point above was that restaurant was breaking the law.

 

 

The problem is in your phrase "refusing business"  The baker did NOT refuse business to anyone coming into his shop.

He asked the gay couple if they could go elsewhere because he did not believe in same sex marriage.  They refused.

 

 

 

 

In a 7-2 opinion authored by Justice Anthony Kennedy, the Court held that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission's actions violated a shop owner's right to the free exercise of his religious beliefs.

 

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

I am not sure where you are getting this interpretation.

 

My first point above was that restaurant was breaking the law.

 

 

The problem is in your phrase "refusing business"  The baker did NOT refuse business to anyone coming into his shop.

He asked the gay couple if they could go elsewhere because he did not believe in same sex marriage.  They refused.

 

 

 

 

In a 7-2 opinion authored by Justice Anthony Kennedy, the Court held that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission's actions violated a shop owner's right to the free exercise of his religious beliefs.

 

Supreme Court ruling aside how is not baking a cake for them NOT refusing business?   Was it because they never set foot in his shop?  

[SoCal Deek]

20 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

So refusing business due to religious beliefs is not a two way street?  If the restaurant refuses to cater the group at a church would that be ok?  It seems very hypocritical to me. 

Substitute religion for some other sort of objection. For example…what if a progressive baker was being asked to bake a cake for an ‘Alt-Right’ group’s annual awards dinner? Unless there’s no other bakers in the area, I’d recommend the people just go find another bake shop. In this day and age it shouldn’t be that hard to find one. I doubt the bake shop is posting a derogatory sign in the window. 

[sherpa]

31 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

So refusing business due to religious beliefs is not a two way street?  If the restaurant refuses to cater the group at a church would that be ok?  It seems very hypocritical to me. 

 

Not that I care, but refusing to provide a catering service at somebody else's location is entirely different than refusing to serve them in your restaraunt and making that decision very close to the time of the reservation, claiming you were concerned about the safety of your wait staff.

Give me a break.

[B-Man]

9 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Supreme Court ruling aside how is not baking a cake for them NOT refusing business?   Was it because they never set foot in his shop?  

 

 

Enough nitpicking Jim.

 

In a free America, he does NOT have to give up his rights and belief over others rights unless there is an overriding consequence.

 

In these bakeshop incidents, there is not.

 

 

 

 

.

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

No.

 

Again the Supreme Court was clear.

 

This restauranteer is breaking the law. Refusing to engage in his daily business and by discriminating against a specific group.

 

in ALL the cake cases, the baker DID serve gays in his shop daily and had nothing against anyone, he simply requested that he not be forced to participate in a ceremony that his religion did not recognize.

 

Yes, it can be a slippery slope, BUT in this case it is pretty easy to see the difference.

 

 

 

.

ADDED: By the by, you give yourself away with your "Christian Extremists group" quote.

 

It was the family Foundation.

 

and the Restaurant owner said that he disagree with their pro-life position and same sex marriage, positions held by tens of millions of Americans.

 

 

oooh, scary extremists !

 

 

.

Not sure what I gave away...I am not some lefty or right, or extremist. I do however believe that religion, any religion should play no role in politics, or laws that give any religion a superior position. Keep religion personal, not political. Any step in a democracy that allows what the baker ruling showed, is the slope towards Iran, Iraq, SA, Israel,  etc etc just a different religion. When the Muslim baker in Toledo, Ohio refuses to bake a cake that will be served at a funeral by the Catholic Women's Leaque in the church basement we will see how people react.

[Chef Jim]

49 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Substitute religion for some other sort of objection. For example…what if a progressive baker was being asked to bake a cake for an ‘Alt-Right’ group’s annual awards dinner? Unless there’s no other bakers in the area, I’d recommend the people just go find another bake shop. In this day and age it shouldn’t be that hard to find one. I doubt the bake shop is posting a derogatory sign in the window. 

 

And if there are no other bakers in the area?

 

And couldn't the same be said for the restaurant that refused to served the religious group?  I'm truly, and honestly, not seeing a difference in the two refusals to provide service.  

38 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Enough nitpicking Jim.

 

In a free America, he does NOT have to give up his rights and belief over others rights unless there is an overriding consequence.

 

In these bakeshop incidents, there is not.

 

 

 

 

.

 

Nitpicking?  So seriously, why can the bakeshop say no to the gay group but the restaurant cannot say no to a religious group?  Do the rights of the believers Trump those of the non- believers.