Niagara Bill Posted October 25, 2022 Posted October 25, 2022 (Please understand this is not sarcasm), trying to wrap my head around such rulings. So the California judge says religious beliefs is a good reason not to sell wedding cake to gay couple. Where does that lead to by extension? Can refuse any sale to gay couple...cup cakes, donuts? Or just the symbolic cake? Can refuse to hire any gay or just married gay? Can refuse to rent house to gay couple? Is the reverse also OK, that a gay merchant doesn't have to sell goods to religious group who do not support gay rights? Or is it just illegal to not discriminate based on religion. Does gay also then extend to atheists, since they are not religious? Just some thoughts on a Tuesday! It feels so offside to the US constitution. Any serious commentary would be appreciated.
B-Man Posted October 25, 2022 Posted October 25, 2022 You can stop after your second question. The supreme court ruling was very specific. The ruling was that any baker could not be forced to participate in a ceremony/ event that clearly goes against their personal beliefs. ALL of your other examples are illegal, as they should be. You are not allowed to discriminate against any customers for the reasons you list (this is not new) The baker in question has never refused any gay customers at his shop, who even asks ? When he declined to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple, those folks deliberately tried to make him an example to intimidate other businesses It was a setup, and thankfully the courts have reached a reasonable decision that protects everyone. . 1 1 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted October 25, 2022 Posted October 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said: (Please understand this is not sarcasm), trying to wrap my head around such rulings. So the California judge says religious beliefs is a good reason not to sell wedding cake to gay couple. Where does that lead to by extension? Can refuse any sale to gay couple...cup cakes, donuts? Or just the symbolic cake? Can refuse to hire any gay or just married gay? Can refuse to rent house to gay couple? Is the reverse also OK, that a gay merchant doesn't have to sell goods to religious group who do not support gay rights? Or is it just illegal to not discriminate based on religion. Does gay also then extend to atheists, since they are not religious? Just some thoughts on a Tuesday! It feels so offside to the US constitution. Any serious commentary would be appreciated. You honestly need to stop reading just left wing stuff. The guy in CO who has been harassed simply did not want to make a cake that celebrated something he did not believe in. He would have gladly made a cake that they could decorate anyway they wanted after they left the bakery, but they wanted to force him to write something he disagrees with. If someone asked him to write something that was pro religion and he was an atheist many of these people would proudly defend his right to not write it, but he could not refuse to do a cake and just sell it to them. 1
Chef Jim Posted October 25, 2022 Posted October 25, 2022 I agree with B-Man here. The only question worth debating is your first point. So I will follow up your question with a question. How would you feel if a caterer who was Muslim refused to cater a party because they wanted to serve alcohol? 1
Niagara Bill Posted October 25, 2022 Author Posted October 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Chef Jim said: I agree with B-Man here. The only question worth debating is your first point. So I will follow up your question with a question. How would you feel if a caterer who was Muslim refused to cater a party because they wanted to serve alcohol? I would say you have the right to accept or decline any business for your establishment, but I do not believe serving of alcohol is legitimate. Being too busy is. Unable to fulfill is another. I suggest that putting a picture or words on a cake that is pornographic or suggestive is a reason, but not because I disagree with your life style. Since thec11th century Christians have fought Muslims, not a reason for refusal, IMHO. Would a Muslim have the right to deny employment based on alcohol? But thanks for your thoughts. Confusing to me...a small step that concerns me.
OrangeBills Posted October 25, 2022 Posted October 25, 2022 It just seems like you're not going to get it. That's what it feels like to me. (and that's OK by the way) And I don't mean that in the "gotcha" sense. It's just so very clear at this point, and most people are "normal" and don't run around trying to create life statements for others (talking about the folks suing bakers here). All that said, I have zero problem with anyone being who they are and I guess if it wasn't vulgar and I owned a bakery I'd do whatever. 1
Chef Jim Posted October 25, 2022 Posted October 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: I would say you have the right to accept or decline any business for your establishment, but I do not believe serving of alcohol is legitimate. Being too busy is. Unable to fulfill is another. I suggest that putting a picture or words on a cake that is pornographic or suggestive is a reason, but not because I disagree with your life style. Since thec11th century Christians have fought Muslims, not a reason for refusal, IMHO. Would a Muslim have the right to deny employment based on alcohol? But thanks for your thoughts. Confusing to me...a small step that concerns me. Why is refusing to accept business due to part of the agreement goes against your religious beliefs not acceptable to you? Since when did "we refuse the right to serve anyone......" become irrelevant? 1
Niagara Bill Posted October 26, 2022 Author Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chef Jim said: Why is refusing to accept business due to part of the agreement goes against your religious beliefs not acceptable to you? Since when did "we refuse the right to serve anyone......" become irrelevant? So my religion is antisemitic because Jews killed Christ? I will not serve Jews? 100% wrong for society. Nobody's religion trumps society. You open a business to the public, it means everyone, within legal terms , not religious issues. Serving or not serving a drunk is societal and legal. One day, when the US is dominated by Muslims, not Christians you may wish you had thought differently. Ps, why do you not answer questions but only seem to ask them. Edited October 26, 2022 by Niagara Bill
Chef Jim Posted October 26, 2022 Posted October 26, 2022 10 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: So my religion is antisemitic because Jews killed Christ? I will not serve Jews? 100% wrong for society. Nobody's religion trumps society. You open a business to the public, it means everyone, within legal terms , not religious issues. Serving or not serving a drunk is societal and legal. One day, when the US is dominated by Muslims, not Christians you may wish you had thought differently. Ps, why do you not answer questions but only seem to ask them. What in the world are you talking about in your first two sentences?? And I’ll answer any questions you ask. All I saw from were rhetorical questions. So ask away.
Niagara Bill Posted October 26, 2022 Author Posted October 26, 2022 11 hours ago, Chef Jim said: What in the world are you talking about in your first two sentences?? And I’ll answer any questions you ask. All I saw from were rhetorical questions. So ask away. Why should any religion be a reason for exemption from any law or societal norm?
OrangeBills Posted October 26, 2022 Posted October 26, 2022 18 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: Why should any religion be a reason for exemption from any law or societal norm? It's as simple as that is how our country came to be formed and continues to be standing...it's also part of the reason the country survived and thrived and IS the nation you (presumably) reside in today. Feels to me like (in general) the American Left takes a whole helluva lot for granted these days. Life on this rock ain't easy...amazing civilizations just don't "appear" out of nowhere...and have have NEVER, EVER emerged when the type of principles the American Left wants to apply and live by have been dominant. Not ever. Those principles HAVE led to the demise of civilizations many times over, though
Chef Jim Posted October 26, 2022 Posted October 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said: Why should any religion be a reason for exemption from any law or societal norm? Great question. Because I am not discriminating against you based on YOUR sex, race or religion. I have made a business decision not to provide you a product or service because it goes against MY faith. As a matter of fact I’ll even help you find a business that WILL help you. It’s kind of the old George Costanza line. “It’s not you….it’s me!” And we are getting all worked up over something that likely very rarely happens. Oh and what law am I being exempt from by not offering a product or service?
Niagara Bill Posted October 26, 2022 Author Posted October 26, 2022 10 hours ago, Chef Jim said: Great question. Because I am not discriminating against you based on YOUR sex, race or religion. I have made a business decision not to provide you a product or service because it goes against MY faith. As a matter of fact I’ll even help you find a business that WILL help you. It’s kind of the old George Costanza line. “It’s not you….it’s me!” And we are getting all worked up over something that likely very rarely happens. Oh and what law am I being exempt from by not offering a product or service? As a Roman Catholic who does not support the use of birth control, or abortion, do I have the right to not serve you in my restaurant if you believe and use birth control or have an abortion. Is this not a similar situation. 11 hours ago, OrangeBills said: It's as simple as that is how our country came to be formed and continues to be standing...it's also part of the reason the country survived and thrived and IS the nation you (presumably) reside in today. Feels to me like (in general) the American Left takes a whole helluva lot for granted these days. Life on this rock ain't easy...amazing civilizations just don't "appear" out of nowhere...and have have NEVER, EVER emerged when the type of principles the American Left wants to apply and live by have been dominant. Not ever. Those principles HAVE led to the demise of civilizations many times over, though Hmmmm Not sure what you said, but, by practicing your religion as the US constitution guarantees does that give you the right to discriminate against other religions or people who do not support your religion. Can a public business specify they only sell goods and services to those in certain religions.
OrangeBills Posted October 26, 2022 Posted October 26, 2022 10 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: As a Roman Catholic who does not support the use of birth control, or abortion, do I have the right to not serve you in my restaurant if you believe and use birth control or have an abortion. Is this not a similar situation. Hmmmm Not sure what you said, but, by practicing your religion as the US constitution guarantees does that give you the right to discriminate against other religions or people who do not support your religion. Can a public business specify they only sell goods and services to those in certain religions. Geezus. Public business no. Private, yes. i dont even care here just trying to help you. These are symptoms. I can assure you, civilizations over the eons that have tempted these fates have fallen by them. We know that, because right now we're the only one left. It's not hard. 1
Chef Jim Posted October 27, 2022 Posted October 27, 2022 58 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: As a Roman Catholic who does not support the use of birth control, or abortion, do I have the right to not serve you in my restaurant if you believe and use birth control or have an abortion. In my opinion? Absolutely! There are a million other restaurants I can go to. It’s your business. You have not discriminated against me based on my sex, race, religion or sexual orientation. 1
Niagara Bill Posted October 27, 2022 Author Posted October 27, 2022 11 hours ago, Chef Jim said: In my opinion? Absolutely! There are a million other restaurants I can go to. It’s your business. You have not discriminated against me based on my sex, race, religion or sexual orientation. Well, for sure we are on opposite sides of this discussion. Can't wait for the neon sign version of your position. "Trader Joe's" made only for Christians for Christians. Have a good day
Chef Jim Posted October 27, 2022 Posted October 27, 2022 18 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: Well, for sure we are on opposite sides of this discussion. Can't wait for the neon sign version of your position. "Trader Joe's" made only for Christians for Christians. Have a good day Yup and Trader Joe’s would cease to exist. Your problem solved. Would you politely ask if a couple guys in Nazi uniforms who were freaking out your customers to leave? 1
Niagara Bill Posted October 27, 2022 Author Posted October 27, 2022 4 hours ago, Chef Jim said: Yup and Trader Joe’s would cease to exist. Your problem solved. Would you politely ask if a couple guys in Nazi uniforms who were freaking out your customers to leave? So my gay son is equated to a Nazi by you. So the bakery has a questionnaire when ordering. 1. Are you gay 2.is this an arranged marriage 3. Do you use birth control 4. Do you believe in abortion 5. Do you go to a church or synagogue Chef....you are on a slippery slope. Protest are part of society, illegal protests are dealt with by police. Blockades are illegal. But Jan 6th protest methods are ok? Have a good day...
Chef Jim Posted October 27, 2022 Posted October 27, 2022 27 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: So my gay son is equated to a Nazi by you. We're done here. 1
PetermansRedemption Posted October 27, 2022 Posted October 27, 2022 (edited) I always thought it was any businesses right to refuse service to anyone at anytime for any reason. Is this not the case? edit: found my own answer. Learn something new everyday. Under federal anti-discrimination laws, businesses can refuse service to any person for any reason, unless the business is discriminating against a protected class. At the national level, protected classes include: Race or color National origin or citizenship status Religion or creed Sex Age Disability, pregnancy, or genetic information Veteran status Edited October 27, 2022 by PetermansRedemption 1 2
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