Zone run vs Pin and Pull

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

All I remember is I heard someone who seemed to know he was talking about say that running the stretch handoff is more effective in the wide zone than running out of the gun.  He didn't explain why, and I don't know enough to know whether what he said actually makes sense.  He didn't say you can't run it from the gun; obviously, you can.   He said it was more effective.  

Yeah, that's just simply not true.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah.

 

They basically took the same starting personnel in the run game from 2016............a team that lead the NFL in rushing and big plays............into 2017 and turned it into a pathetic offense that labored to move the ball on the ground by switching to an outside zone scheme with Rick Dennison.   And still McD keeps trying. 

 

I think McDermott just hates defending it because it is generally a good way to take the starch out of a pass rush by making the DL move horizontally and it keeps you guessing defensively if it works right.

 

I think OC's like it because they can basically stay in pass pro looks all the time with lineman moving horizontally and because the line calls are very simple.

 

It's one thing to do that when you have a limited QB like Jimmy G behind center............I just don't see the point of putting so many players in position to not be their best when you have Josh Allen at QB.   He doesn't need slight of hand like that.

 

 

Agree with all that.

[HoofHearted]

13 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Running in general is more effective under center because the RB is moving forward as he gets the handoff versus standing still.

I wouldn't say this is inherently true either. A lot of what makes run games effective is timing, not the rate at which the RB is moving forward when he gets the handoff. Additionally, outside of some type of draw, there shouldn't ever be a time where a RB isn't moving when receiving a ball in any concept.

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I wouldn't say this is inherently true either. A lot of what makes run games effective is timing, not the rate at which the RB is moving forward when he gets the handoff. Additionally, outside of some type of draw, there shouldn't ever be a time where a RB isn't moving when receiving a ball in any concept.

 

I was under the impression that was the basis for the creating of the Pistol Formation...to make running more effective from the gun.

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I was under the impression that was the basis for the creating of the Pistol Formation...to make running more effective from the gun.

Ault's mindset for running was a downhill style of run game. It took him and his staff at Nevada quite some time to figure out ideal depths for the QB and RB when they first started messing around with the Pistol because it threw the timing off of all their run concepts. Ultimately though it came down to timing over everything as to whether or not a concept was able to be successful or not.

[ColoradoBills]

15 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I wouldn't say this is inherently true either. A lot of what makes run games effective is timing, not the rate at which the RB is moving forward when he gets the handoff. Additionally, outside of some type of draw, there shouldn't ever be a time where a RB isn't moving when receiving a ball in any concept.

 

I've noticed a lot of Josh's RPOs that end up being a handoff, both he and the RB are pretty stationary.  I speculate that this is caused by

Josh wanting to pull the ball back and throw or run himself.

 

I do agree with the timing aspect being important.  It seems to me a good number of Bills running plays just don't look crisp.  I have

speculated that not enough effort (as of now) has been put into the running game.  I also wonder how effective practice time has been

for the offense when the Bills' run D is so good.  

 

My hope is the run game will improve as the new OC settles in with his passing game and can give more attention with his new OL coach

to the running game.  Do you see any merit in my thought or do you think I'm just dreaming?

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I've noticed a lot of Josh's RPOs that end up being a handoff, both he and the RB are pretty stationary.  I speculate that this is caused by

Josh wanting to pull the ball back and throw or run himself.

 

I do agree with the timing aspect being important.  It seems to me a good number of Bills running plays just don't look crisp.  I have

speculated that not enough effort (as of now) has been put into the running game.  I also wonder how effective practice time has been

for the offense when the Bills' run D is so good.  

 

My hope is the run game will improve as the new OC settles in with his passing game and can give more attention with his new OL coach

to the running game.  Do you see any merit in my thought or do you think I'm just dreaming?

 

There's a read element on RPO's but the mesh shouldn't look any different than non-RPO's out of gun. I can guarantee you the run game is a staple of practice every day. I have never been around an OC that doesn't spend at least 20 minutes on mesh and run polish every day. Then you get some type of inside run work in a team setting on top of that.

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

There's a read element on RPO's but the mesh shouldn't look any different than non-RPO's out of gun. I can guarantee you the run game is a staple of practice every day. I have never been around an OC that doesn't spend at least 20 minutes on mesh and run polish every day. Then you get some type of inside run work in a team setting on top of that.

 

Just to clarify I didn't mean they ignored the run game.  So then, it's the talent of the players and/or coaching scheme that is the problem.

Without a change in personnel, what can be done this year to improve the run game?

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Just to clarify I didn't mean they ignored the run game.  So then, it's the talent of the players and/or coaching scheme that is the problem.

Without a change in personnel, what can be done this year to improve the run game?

I'll have a better answer for you after I start breaking it down in a few weeks.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, PaattMaann said:

Another thing not being discussed enough here is not related to the line at all. 

 

Our RB's aren't good zone scheme RB's. Meaning they don't have to burst to hit the holes as they open that is required, and don't have the speed to hit the backside holes when those open later in the play movement. Singletary and Moss don't have it anyway, and Cook does but he isn't being used in this regard so I cant really speak to him. This isn't to say our RB's are too slow (although they kind of are) but it's to say that because defenses play zone against Allen the vast majority of the time, their defenders are looking into the backfield already so when they see run, they fire up to the LOS and holes frontside and backside close faster than against other teams. 

 

I'll be interested to see how @HoofHearted sees this when he hits the all-22 in a month or so.

 

I don't think it's at all true that our RB's couldn't play well in an effective zone blocking scheme.  It may be true they don't have the speed to bounce to the backside holes when those open later, or to get out to the edge (except Cook).  I forget who I was watching - it may have been the Colts, or maybe it was KC Monday week - Pacheco - but I remember seeing a couple zone runs where the first 2 holes were a "no" and the RB easily re-directed and hit the backside and I thought "our guys can't do that".

 

I haven't done some systematic study, but when I see a run play blown up, a couple things have struck me:

1) the defender is in the backfield off the edge almost immediately after the handoff.  so either the blocking wasn't designed to account for that defender, or whoever was supposed to block him whiffed (I sometimes see a sheepish WR running into view)

2) there's a gap, and the RB gets through it, but whoever was supposed to block the LB at the 2nd level, didn't.  Sometimes I think this is an OLman who was supposed to hand his guy off and didn't.  So it's a positive play but a short gain of 2-3 yds vs longer.

3) in Miami, the timing of the blocking was off, possibly because guys were losing their legs due to heat.  One play in particular struck me where Gillislee (I think) was supposed to go in motion across the formation and block for Motor in the gap between the LT/LG and C (I think), but he got to the hole concurrently with Motor and they banged into each other.  That was down near the goal line, too.

 

I think the fact that we run from shotgun 25% of the time and run from under center 65% of the time has a big impact on how teams play run D against us.  And really for handoffs, the split is probably more than that, because I'd guess that a good fraction of the runs from shotgun are either designed runs for Josh or scrambles.

 

If anyone has a subscription to one of those services that has more granularity than PFR and breaks that down, I'd love to know.

 

45 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

There's a read element on RPO's but the mesh shouldn't look any different than non-RPO's out of gun. I can guarantee you the run game is a staple of practice every day. I have never been around an OC that doesn't spend at least 20 minutes on mesh and run polish every day. Then you get some type of inside run work in a team setting on top of that.

 

I think it might have been true that Daboll shorted the run game in practice at times and McDermott pushed back.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Beck Water

[RunTheBall]

This is TBD at it’s best. Thanks for all the info I’ve got a lot to read up on this weekend

[Beck Water]

On 10/21/2022 at 1:05 PM, GunnerBill said:

Agree with all that.

 

I guess the devil is in the details of what's meant by "They basically took the same starting personnel in the run game from 2016, a team that lead the NFL in rushing and big plays............into 2017"

 

Not to debate any impact of a change in run blocking/OC/OL coach

 

For most of 2016, the OL was Glenn, Incognito, Wood, Miller, and Mills.

For most of 2017, the OL was Dawkins (as a rookie), Incognito, Wood, Ducasse, and Mills.

I think that's a talent downgrade at 2/5 positions

 

In 2016, the WR corps featured Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin, Sammy Watkins and Charles Clay at TE

In 2017, the WR corps featured Deonte Thompson, Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Jordan Matthews, and Andre Holmes (all in and out with injuries) and Clay at TE

I think that's a significant talent downgrade, especially for getting open deep.

 

So while I'm no fan of Rico Dennison or Juan Castillo and believe the scheme change played a role....I don't think it's true at all that they took the same starting personnel that had a top run and deep pass game into 2017.

 

YMMV

 

 

[WideNine]

 

Gap, Zone, or Man.... there is enough ambiguity around terminology.

 

My personal take has been that zone favors bigger mauling type OL who can move defenders with leverage, and also works best with power backs who have that ability to plant and powerfully accelerate through a cut back lane.

 

Zone assignments are easier to teach with very general gap concepts - inside zone attacking A gap north/south blocking with double teams, mid zone C gap (stretch), and outside zone (toss sweeps, jet sweeps, etc.) to attack perimeter.

 

Whether inside, mid, or outside they provide flexible options for the runningback to take. Even with inside the RB has the option to bang it inside, outside, or bend it back away from the gap.

 

Gap favors mobile OL who are good at pulling, angles, assignments, and setting up blocks on the move in space (power, counters, and traps) to create the hole for the back.

 

There are very specific assignments. Running backs who are patient with blocks and more shifty making the first man miss tend to have more success with this.

 

I think the Bills have a mixed bag of OL talent, but definitely have OL players who can pull and block in space.

 

That probably lends itself to gap blocking plays leveraging our OL players who are a bit lighter, have above average mobility, are experienced, and excel at setting up blocks in space.

 

We lack that plant & cut power back that makes zone plays more productive. Singletary has done better making the single cut, hitting the cutback lane, and taking what is there, but I would not say that is his forte.

 

Serviceable comes to mind, but I don't think defenses fear a home run threat.

 

All our OL have been doing very well at pass pro, and Allen is dangerous and effective getting rid of the ball much faster on average this season. It is natural that this offense leans on what it does well.

 

For now it just needs to be effective enough to take some if the heat off Allen and force defenses to account for it.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by WideNine
Mobile glitch repeated everything