Zone run vs Pin and Pull

[BADOLBILZ]

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The answer, I think, is that McDermott seems obsessed with it. He has been trying to build a zone based run game since he arrived. 

 

 

Yeah.

 

They basically took the same starting personnel in the run game from 2016............a team that lead the NFL in rushing and big plays............into 2017 and turned it into a pathetic offense that labored to move the ball on the ground by switching to an outside zone scheme with Rick Dennison.   And still McD keeps trying. 

 

I think McDermott just hates defending it because it is generally a good way to take the starch out of a pass rush by making the DL move horizontally and it keeps you guessing defensively if it works right.

 

I think OC's like it because they can basically stay in pass pro looks all the time with lineman moving horizontally and because the line calls are very simple.

 

It's one thing to do that when you have a limited QB like Jimmy G behind center............I just don't see the point of putting so many players in position to not be their best when you have Josh Allen at QB.   He doesn't need slight of hand like that.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[HoofHearted]

A lot of questions to work through here so bear with me in regards to the wall of text:

 

1. There are no formation limitations to running zone vs gap scheme run concepts - both can be run out of any personnel grouping you could possibly imagine.

 

2. Neither run scheme is tied to a QB being under center.

 

3. Every team in the NFL runs inside zone. If you want to be any good at running the football you have to be able to incorporate both zone scheme and gap scheme run concepts. Likewise you can't just run wide zone/pin and pull and have no interior run concepts in your playbook - it makes you too one dimensional.

 

4. I'd have to go back and re-watch the gap to see if the Chiefs made adjustments for the pin and pull stuff in the second half. Can't tell you off-hand if they did anything different. @Big Turk

 

5. Inside Zone is run best with a bunch of bruisers up front. We don't have those guys. The majority of our line is 310lbs. or under and are decent athletes for big men. Think of a college team like Oklahoma when Cody Ford played for them. They had a bunch of BIG dudes like him that could work on 45 degree angle tracks in unison and get push up front. Oklahoma also coupled their inside zone stuff with heavy doses of true GT (Guard/Tackle) Counter. Keeping defenses off-balance is the big thing and it doesn't feel like we have enough variation with our interior run schemes for defenses to respect anything other than inside zone (Once my season is over I plan on going to the All-22 and doing a full year assessment of our run schemes and do a write-up about it). Inside zone is not a complex concept as far as rules are concerned, but everyone has to be on the same page when defenses start moving up front. The beauty of the concept is that it creates natural cut-back lanes for backs and essentially has three different paths a back could end up taking based on what the defense does. Whereas if you run GT Counter you're back knows you're aiming point pre-snap is playside A gap and it won't change regardless of what the defense does. The flexibility of the scheme to make a defense "wrong" no matter what they do is what makes inside zone so dangerous and why so many teams try to base out of it.

 

6. Pin & pull has been around for forever. It's not a new concept. Go back and look at all the wing-t stuff that was run way back when and you'll see pin & pull as a staple of those offenses.

 

7. RPOs are, by design, created to have run action go one way and pass action go the opposite of the run action. That's why they work and why they are so hard to defend. It's very similar in concept to the zone read run scheme where you're basically forcing a defender to be wrong regardless of what he does.

 

8. The 5 yard outs to Diggs aren't actually RPO's - they're called "gift" routes. It's a pre-snap read where if you're given cushion pre-snap your route converts to whatever your "gift" concept is that week and it's thrown regardless of the called concept. You'll see this a lot on the backside of 3x1 (to the single receiver side).

Edited October 21, 2022 by HoofHearted

[GustheDog33]

28 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

A lot of questions to work through here so bear with me in regards to the wall of text:

 

1. There are no formation limitations to running zone vs gap scheme run concepts - both can be run out of any personnel grouping you could possibly imagine.

 

2. Neither run scheme is tied to a QB being under center.

 

3. Every team in the NFL runs inside zone. If you want to be any good at running the football you have to be able to incorporate both zone scheme and gap scheme run concepts. Likewise you can't just run wide zone/pin and pull and have no interior run concepts in your playbook - it makes you too one dimensional.

 

4. I'd have to go back and re-watch the gap to see if the Chiefs made adjustments for the pin and pull stuff in the second half. Can't tell you off-hand if they did anything different. @Big Turk

 

5. Inside Zone is run best with a bunch of bruisers up front. We don't have those guys. The majority of our line is 310lbs. or under and are decent athletes for big men. Think of a college team like Oklahoma when Cody Ford played for them. They had a bunch of BIG dudes like him that could work on 45 degree angle tracks in unison and get push up front. Oklahoma also coupled their inside zone stuff with heavy doses of true GT (Guard/Tackle) Counter. Keeping defenses off-balance is the big thing and it doesn't feel like we have enough variation with our interior run schemes for defenses to respect anything other than inside zone (Once my season is over I plan on going to the All-22 and doing a full year assessment of our run schemes and do a write-up about it). Inside zone is not a complex concept as far as rules are concerned, but everyone has to be on the same page when defenses start moving up front. The beauty of the concept is that it creates natural cut-back lanes for backs and essentially has three different paths a back could end up taking based on what the defense does. Whereas if you run GT Counter you're back knows you're aiming point pre-snap is playside A gap and it won't change regardless of what the defense does. The flexibility of the scheme to make a defense "wrong" no matter what they do is what makes inside zone so dangerous and why so many teams try to base out of it.

 

6. Pin & pull has been around for forever. It's not a new concept. Go back and look at all the wing-t stuff that was run way back when and you'll see pin & pull as a staple of those offenses.

 

7. RPOs are, by design, created to have run action go one way and pass action go the opposite of the run action. That's why they work and why they are so hard to defend. It's very similar in concept to the zone read run scheme where you're basically forcing a defender to be wrong regardless of what he does.

 

8. The 5 yard outs to Diggs aren't actually RPO's - they're called "gift" routes. It's a pre-snap read where if you're given cushion pre-snap your route converts to whatever your "gift" concept is that week and it's thrown regardless of the called concept. You'll see this a lot on the backside of 3x1 (to the single receiver side).

This is all correct.  Great Post!

[BearNorth]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

I don't know what the reason was, but once again they trotted this out the first 4 weeks and once again they sucked at it, possibly even worse than last year.

They might get a mulligan on the Miami game, given the heat-related attrition of the OL that day.  Baltimore wasn't pretty, esp in the first half.

 

Would like to see some semblance of a competent [non-QB] running game, even when we get out to a lead, if for no other reason to burn clock and force the opposing defense to pick their poison.

[Big Turk]

48 minutes ago, GustheDog33 said:

This is all correct.  Great Post!

 

Coming from a high school and college DC, I would hope so!

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

I'm wondering why they tried to go back to the inside zone scheme when they knew it was a weakness last year and they couldn't do it well.  Is there some sort of advantage in terms of what they can do with it?  Ie, more varied play calls, more options, etc?

 

As far as weakness/couldn't do it well I think the Bills were hoping that Kromer plus the addition of Saffold would help.  I will say, when the zone runs fail it's not always on the OL.  Sometimes the TE and WR are missing blocks, or else there's just an unblocked guy coming around the edge into the backfield.

 

As far as advantage, I'm hoping someone who knows more than I about meshing the run and the passing game will comment.  @HoofHearted?  @Buffalo716?  I have only the vague idea that zone runs mesh better with operating out of shotgun and pin-and-pull gap runs work better operating under center.  But when I say "vague idea" I mean my understanding is definitely in the "look at the choo choo" stage  and quite likely mistaken.

 

This would be a very interesting film room topic for Cover1 to take up - what have the Bills been trying to do in the run game and why are they trying to do it in terms of what they're trying to accomplish in the passing game?  What have they done that works in the run game, and what aspects of the passing game work well or poorly with those run concepts?  I think there'd be a lot of interest from serious Bills fans ie, Cover1's market.

 

I can contribute this. 

 

Bills operate out of the shotgun almost 75% of the time: 294 snaps vs 104 under center, and when you take the kneel-downs out of there, maybe more.  This year, we're actually about equally successful in the passing game under center vs shotgun: 67% vs 66% completion, 8.3 vs 8.4 ANY/A

 

When the Bills are in shotgun, they pass ~70% of the time.

When the Bills are under center, they pass ~35% of the time.

 

So just being under center for the Bills, is a pretty big "tell" to other teams that they're probably looking at a rush attempt

Being from the shotgun, is a pretty big "tell" to other teams that a pass attempt is likely.

 

Which may be why the Bills are actually considerably more successful gaining yards when running out of shotgun - 76 attempts at 6 YPA - vs under center - 71 attempts at 3.6 YPA

 

Data from pro-football-reference

 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Beck Water

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

As far as advantage, I'm hoping someone who knows more than I about meshing the run and the passing game will comment.  @HoofHearted?  @Buffalo716?  I have only the vague idea that zone runs mesh better with operating out of shotgun and pin-and-pull gap runs work better operating under center.  But when I say "vague idea" I mean my understanding is definitely in the "look at the choo choo" stage of training.

There's nothing to this. Both schemes can be equally effective out of gun or under center. Like I said I'll start working on breaking down our run game using the All-22 stuff here in a few weeks and make a post about it.

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

There's nothing to this. Both schemes can be equally effective out of gun or under center. Like I said I'll start working on breaking down our run game using the All-22 stuff here in a few weeks and make a post about it.

 

That would be fantastic - I'll look forward to it.

[PaattMaann]

Another thing not being discussed enough here is not related to the line at all. 

 

Our RB's aren't good zone scheme RB's. Meaning they don't have to burst to hit the holes as they open that is required, and don't have the speed to hit the backside holes when those open later in the play movement. Singletary and Moss don't have it anyway, and Cook does but he isn't being used in this regard so I cant really speak to him. This isn't to say our RB's are too slow (although they kind of are) but it's to say that because defenses play zone against Allen the vast majority of the time, their defenders are looking into the backfield already so when they see run, they fire up to the LOS and holes frontside and backside close faster than against other teams. 

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, PaattMaann said:

Another thing not being discussed enough here is not related to the line at all. 

 

Our RB's aren't good zone scheme RB's. Meaning they don't have to burst to hit the holes as they open that is required, and don't have the speed to hit the backside holes when those open later in the play movement. Singletary and Moss don't have it anyway, and Cook does but he isn't being used in this regard so I cant really speak to him. This isn't to say our RB's are too slow (although they kind of are) but it's to say that because defenses play zone against Allen the vast majority of the time, their defenders are looking into the backfield already so when they see run, they fire up to the LOS and holes frontside and backside close faster than against other teams. 

 

I am not sure what RB would be fast enough when there is literally a guy in the backfield waiting for them every time they get the handoff just about in inside zone runs and sometimes multiple guys.  

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

 

2. Neither run scheme is tied to a QB being under center.

 

 

 

I'm not sure this is correct.   I heard some expert say a few weeks ago that the outside zone game works best when the QB is under center and executes the stretch handoff.  In fact, I noticed on Sunday that Allen was making the stretch handoff a few times, something that I hadn't noticed previously.   It may have something to do with the back being able to break wide on the snap, rather than waiting for the snap to reach the shotgun QB and make the handoff, so the back has a head start to the edge.   It stresses the defense, because all the d linemen are flowing with offensive linemen.  If the back can break that way on the snap, the d linemen have to commit that way in a hurry.   It's that movement that makes the zone blocks easier to execute, because the d lineman are moving laterally immediately and are less able to take on linemen coming at them.   

[PaattMaann]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I am not sure what RB would be fast enough when there is literally a guy in the backfield waiting for them every time they get the handoff just about in inside zone runs and sometimes multiple guys.  

 

your point is valid, but you are also exaggerating. It doesn't happen EVERY TIME. There are good cut ups readily available on twitter that visually show exactly what I am describing, Devin being late to the open hole. Its not necessarily a knock on him, its just that we aren't currently tooled to run that run game effectively.  

 

*EDIT: my bad, I didn't read you saying "in inside zone runs". I was referring to us running outside zone runs where the holes are present but Devin has been too late to them and they are closing too quick. Apologies. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by PaattMaann

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, PaattMaann said:

Another thing not being discussed enough here is not related to the line at all. 

 

Our RB's aren't good zone scheme RB's. Meaning they don't have to burst to hit the holes as they open that is required, and don't have the speed to hit the backside holes when those open later in the play movement. Singletary and Moss don't have it anyway, and Cook does but he isn't being used in this regard so I cant really speak to him. This isn't to say our RB's are too slow (although they kind of are) but it's to say that because defenses play zone against Allen the vast majority of the time, their defenders are looking into the backfield already so when they see run, they fire up to the LOS and holes frontside and backside close faster than against other teams. 

I think this is true.  Singletary and Moss are really pretty good in the hole.   They use shiftiness and power to beat arm tackles in the hold.   But they aren't so good at the quick changes of directions.  So, for example, on Cook's touchdown run a couple weeks ago, Singletary probably could have made the cut to the left to got Cook the room to sprint to the end zone, but it was easy to see how much more naturally Cook made that cut.  For him, it was almost effortless.  That sort of change of direction is what makes a good back in the outside zone blocking scheme.  

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think this is true.  Singletary and Moss are really pretty good in the hole.   They use shiftiness and power to beat arm tackles in the hold.   But they aren't so good at the quick changes of directions.  So, for example, on Cook's touchdown run a couple weeks ago, Singletary probably could have made the cut to the left to got Cook the room to sprint to the end zone, but it was easy to see how much more naturally Cook made that cut.  For him, it was almost effortless.  That sort of change of direction is what makes a good back in the outside zone blocking scheme.  

 

4 minutes ago, PaattMaann said:

 

your point is valid, but you are also exaggerating. It doesn't happen EVERY TIME. There are good cut ups readily available on twitter that visually show exactly what I am describing, Devin being late to the open hole. Its not necessarily a knock on him, its just that we aren't currently tooled to run that run game effectively.  

 

*EDIT: my bad, I didn't read you saying "in inside zone runs". I was referring to us running outside zone runs where the holes are present but Devin has been too late to them and they are closing too quick. Apologies. 

 

Well, if they know their RBs are better at gap scheme/pin and pull/wide zone runs to the edges then why do they keep trying to force the inside zone runs?  I get they have to do some of that to keep defenses from keying on all outside edge runs, but they should be making those their bread and butter and sprinkle in the other inside zones.  Play to your personnel's strengths, not their weaknesses.

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not sure this is correct.   I heard some expert say a few weeks ago that the outside zone game works best when the QB is under center and executes the stretch handoff.  In fact, I noticed on Sunday that Allen was making the stretch handoff a few times, something that I hadn't noticed previously.   It may have something to do with the back being able to break wide on the snap, rather than waiting for the snap to reach the shotgun QB and make the handoff, so the back has a head start to the edge.   It stresses the defense, because all the d linemen are flowing with offensive linemen.  If the back can break that way on the snap, the d linemen have to commit that way in a hurry.   It's that movement that makes the zone blocks easier to execute, because the d lineman are moving laterally immediately and are less able to take on linemen coming at them.   

You can run outside zone from under center, in gun, or in pistol. The stretch path is taught when running it from under center or out of pistol. When in gun the back is even to slightly in front of the QB with his alignment and can hit it running horizontally immediately. Not sure what expert you were listening to, but maybe you misunderstood or they're misunderstood?

[Big Turk]

Maybe the Bills should utilize the pistol formation more to help the run game while in the gun?  Gives the advantages of shotgun in passing and gives them the advantages of the single back formation under center(ACE formation) while running.  

 

 

https://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2010/4/14/1405240/pistol-formation-part-i-evolution

 

FYI ShakinTheSouthland has some excellent overall articles talking about concepts and explanations of them.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

Well, if they know their RBs are better at gap scheme/pin and pull/wide zone runs to the edges then why do they keep trying to force the inside zone runs?  I get they have to do some of that to keep defenses from keying on all outside edge runs, but they should be making those their bread and butter and sprinkle in the other inside zones.  Play to your personnel's strengths, not their weaknesses.

I agree.   I don't understand the blocking schemes well enough to say anything particularly intelligent about them, but I think your question is the right question.  

 

It seems to me that the offensive line is built be able to play all styles, with an emphasis on athleticism and mobility.  I can understand the attraction of the outside zone plays because, as I said, they tend make the blocks easier to execute because the d line is being forced laterally.   They obviously like to get linemen downfield ahead of the backs.  Dominating at the point of attack is always going to be a weakness with linemen like the Bills seem to like.  

[boyst]

25 minutes ago, PaattMaann said:

Another thing not being discussed enough here is not related to the line at all. 

 

Our RB's aren't good zone scheme RB's. Meaning they don't have to burst to hit the holes as they open that is required, and don't have the speed to hit the backside holes when those open later in the play movement. Singletary and Moss don't have it anyway, and Cook does but he isn't being used in this regard so I cant really speak to him. This isn't to say our RB's are too slow (although they kind of are) but it's to say that because defenses play zone against Allen the vast majority of the time, their defenders are looking into the backfield already so when they see run, they fire up to the LOS and holes frontside and backside close faster than against other teams. 

I'm somewhat tied up at the moment or get into it but many won't see your point. 

 

A great zone scheme RB: Thurman or McGahee (but he's stupid)

 

A bad example: Jackson, Lynch.

 

 

If the Bills could have any RB, I'd wantTravis Henry back but I'm not sure he'd be a zone runner. 

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

You can run outside zone from under center, in gun, or in pistol. The stretch path is taught when running it from under center or out of pistol. When in gun the back is even to slightly in front of the QB with his alignment and can hit it running horizontally immediately. Not sure what expert you were listening to, but maybe you misunderstood or they're misunderstood?

All I remember is I heard someone who seemed to know he was talking about say that running the stretch handoff is more effective in the wide zone than running out of the gun.  He didn't explain why, and I don't know enough to know whether what he said actually makes sense.  He didn't say you can't run it from the gun; obviously, you can.   He said it was more effective.  

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

All I remember is I heard someone who seemed to know he was talking about say that running the stretch handoff is more effective in the wide zone than running out of the gun.  He didn't explain why, and I don't know enough to know whether what he said actually makes sense.  He didn't say you can't run it from the gun; obviously, you can.   He said it was more effective.  

 

Running in general is more effective under center because the RB is moving forward as he gets the handoff versus standing still.