Zone run vs Pin and Pull

[RunTheBall]

So I've been listening to a few podcasts discussing the running game and how we've been trying to establish a wide zone scheme but against KC we ran more gap scheme pin and pull concepts which our O-line seems to execute better. 

 

Last year when our running game got moving towards the end of the year it was the pin and pull concepts that seemed to thrive. 

 

So my question to those smarter than me is why do we keep trying this zone run scheme? What is the advantage to a wide zone as opposed to pin and pull? It sees to me if we were fairly good at the end of last year with the pin and pull, why wouldn't we roll that out at the beginning of this year instead of the wide zone?

 

Is there some advantage to the wide zone that I'm missing? Are there other wrinkles in the offense we want to run that depend on a zone scheme?

 

Just curious because to me I'd just keep hammering the pin and pull for the most part. It seems they went to it more in the KC game and maybe we are seeing that shift now but they definitely were trying to establish a zone scheme and I'm not sure why. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by RunTheBall

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

So I've been listening to a few podcasts discussing the running game and how we've been trying to establish a wide zone scheme but against KC we ran more gap scheme pin and pull concepts which our O-line seems to execute better. 

 

Last year when our running game got moving towards the end of the year it was the pin and pull concepts that seemed to thrive. 

 

So my question to those smarter than me is why do we keep trying this zone run scheme? What is the advantage to a wide zone as opposed to pin and pull? It sees to me if we were fairly good at the end of last year with the pin and pull, why wouldn't we roll that out at the beginning of this year instead of the wide zone?

 

Is there some advantage to the wide zone that I'm missing? Are there other wrinkles in the offense we want to run that depend on a zone scheme?

 

Just curious because to me I'd just keep hammering the pin and pull for the most part. It seems they went to it more in the KC game and maybe we are seeing that shift now but they definitely were trying to establish a zone scheme and I'm not sure why. 

I believe the answer is that both Daboll and Dorsey have liked the passing options we have when lining up in formations that suit the zone run scheme.  I'm butchering it, but I have read that the pin and pull either limits our passing looks or risks telegraphing run plays based on how we line up.

[Don Otreply]

I don’t know the particulars of each scheme, but I do know that pin and pull has been the most successful blocking scheme for the Bills offense since Spain was our left guard, why the coaches keep trying to put a square peg in a round hole is beyond me, but coaches get wed to their ways and sometimes I think a swift kick in the azs is the answer to wake them up 😂

[Big Turk]

I'm wondering why they tried to go back to the inside zone scheme when they knew it was a weakness last year and they couldn't do it well.  Is there some sort of advantage in terms of what they can do with it?  Ie, more varied play calls, more options, etc?

[DJB]

I was thinking something completely different when I first read “Pin and pull”

Edited October 21, 2022 by DJB

[GunnerBill]

The answer, I think, is that McDermott seems obsessed with it. He has been trying to build a zone based run game since he arrived. 

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I believe the answer is that both Daboll and Dorsey have liked the passing options we have when lining up in formations that suit the zone run scheme.  I'm butchering it, but I have read that the pin and pull either limits our passing looks or risks telegraphing run plays based on how we line up.

 

I think most of the pin and pull runs come with Allen under center, which then forces us to throw passes from under center to keep defenses from knowing it's an obvious run.  However, I don't mind it as Allen is exceptional with play action out of those...among the best in the NFL metrics wise. They did do at least one pin and pull run out of shotgun last week that worked pretty well, so they can do it...

[BrooklynBills]

4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I believe the answer is that both Daboll and Dorsey have liked the passing options we have when lining up in formations that suit the zone run scheme.  I'm butchering it, but I have read that the pin and pull either limits our passing looks or risks telegraphing run plays based on how we line up.

 

This is basically it.  They can marry alot of the run game and pass game together with the zone runs.  Also really works well with the RPO game.  Just more options off of it I think.

[djp14150]

12 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

So I've been listening to a few podcasts discussing the running game and how we've been trying to establish a wide zone scheme but against KC we ran more gap scheme pin and pull concepts which our O-line seems to execute better. 

 

Last year when our running game got moving towards the end of the year it was the pin and pull concepts that seemed to thrive. 

 

So my question to those smarter than me is why do we keep trying this zone run scheme? What is the advantage to a wide zone as opposed to pin and pull? It sees to me if we were fairly good at the end of last year with the pin and pull, why wouldn't we roll that out at the beginning of this year instead of the wide zone?

 

Is there some advantage to the wide zone that I'm missing? Are there other wrinkles in the offense we want to run that depend on a zone scheme?

 

Just curious because to me I'd just keep hammering the pin and pull for the most part. It seems they went to it more in the KC game and maybe we are seeing that shift now but they definitely were trying to establish a zone scheme and I'm not sure why. 

 

pin and pull have similarities to the wide zone methods.

 

the big issue in all formations/ styles is play flexibility. If you line up in a certain formation that means only 2 play types the D has an advantage.

[HoofHearted]

16 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

So I've been listening to a few podcasts discussing the running game and how we've been trying to establish a wide zone scheme but against KC we ran more gap scheme pin and pull concepts which our O-line seems to execute better. 

 

Last year when our running game got moving towards the end of the year it was the pin and pull concepts that seemed to thrive. 

 

So my question to those smarter than me is why do we keep trying this zone run scheme? What is the advantage to a wide zone as opposed to pin and pull? It sees to me if we were fairly good at the end of last year with the pin and pull, why wouldn't we roll that out at the beginning of this year instead of the wide zone?

 

Is there some advantage to the wide zone that I'm missing? Are there other wrinkles in the offense we want to run that depend on a zone scheme?

 

Just curious because to me I'd just keep hammering the pin and pull for the most part. It seems they went to it more in the KC game and maybe we are seeing that shift now but they definitely were trying to establish a zone scheme and I'm not sure why. 

It's still technically Wide Zone - just a different way of blocking it by blocking down to get the edge set and wrapping guys around to lead.

[Big Turk]

20 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

So I've been listening to a few podcasts discussing the running game and how we've been trying to establish a wide zone scheme but against KC we ran more gap scheme pin and pull concepts which our O-line seems to execute better. 

 

Last year when our running game got moving towards the end of the year it was the pin and pull concepts that seemed to thrive. 

 

So my question to those smarter than me is why do we keep trying this zone run scheme? What is the advantage to a wide zone as opposed to pin and pull? It sees to me if we were fairly good at the end of last year with the pin and pull, why wouldn't we roll that out at the beginning of this year instead of the wide zone?

 

Is there some advantage to the wide zone that I'm missing? Are there other wrinkles in the offense we want to run that depend on a zone scheme?

 

Just curious because to me I'd just keep hammering the pin and pull for the most part. It seems they went to it more in the KC game and maybe we are seeing that shift now but they definitely were trying to establish a zone scheme and I'm not sure why. 

 

Yes, they execute them much better and Dorsey should KNOW they execute them much better based on being here last year when we started running the ball effectively late in the year was when we switched from a zone scheme to a gap scheme.  

 

That's why I am wondering why they attempted to switch back.  Did they think Kromer would be able to get them to be better at it?  Did Dorsey feel he could get it working?  Did they think Saffold could help them execute it better?  

 

I don't know what the reason was, but once again they trotted this out the first 4 weeks and once again they sucked at it, possibly even worse than last year.

[Ralonzo]

17 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I believe the answer is that both Daboll and Dorsey have liked the passing options we have when lining up in formations that suit the zone run scheme.  I'm butchering it, but I have read that the pin and pull either limits our passing looks or risks telegraphing run plays based on how we line up.

 

This is my thought, it gives the defense an obvious run key.

[Big Turk]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

It's still technically Wide Zone - just a different way of blocking it by blocking down to get the edge set and wrapping guys around to lead.

 

It looks like the end player on the line, whether it's TE or OT crashes down hard on the DE there and then Morse and sometimes even the whole side of the line loops around that player.

 

Why do you think they tried the inside zones again at the start of the year when Dorsey knew from being here last year we sucked at them?  It was obvious the pin and pull concepts are much more effective with our blockers, especially with Morse out in space.  

 

However, also noticed the Chiefs seemed better at stopping those runs in the 2nd half...what was the adjustment on D they made?

 

Also...why do you think the Bills are so bad on the inside zone plays?  Is it because they physically are not good enough to run those type of plays or is it technique/execution that is causing it?  I am assuming those inside zone plays require every player moving as a unit in sync more than other types of runs and just from what I am seeing, the Bills always seem to have one player who gets beat badly or doesn't do what they should have done allowing a defender in the backfield.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Ralonzo said:

 

This is my thought, it gives the defense an obvious run key.

 

Then playaction out of it...Allen hit Diggs for 31 last game out of one of those under center play actions and he was wide open.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Ralonzo said:

 

This is my thought, it gives the defense an obvious run key.

 

Yep - can't run an RPO if linemen are pulling and others are getting out in front of the play.  Either a penalty or they'll crush you at the mesh point.  

[Big Turk]

Here is something I found that gives some insights into Pin and Pull technique...apparently it is something that is relatively new in it's usage and popularity...

 

https://www.viqtorysports.com/pin-pull-what-is-it-and-how-is-it-run/

 

https://www.xandolabs.com/the-lab/offense/run-game/pin-and-pull-run-concepts/5-essential-principles-of-pin-and-pull-run-concepts/

 

8 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Yep - can't run an RPO if linemen are pulling and others are getting out in front of the play.  Either a penalty or they'll crush you at the mesh point.  

 

Hmm...that isn't true apparently...the video I just posted says it IS RPO friendly, but to the backside of the play.

 

https://insider.afca.com/xs-os-pin-and-pull-rpo/

 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[Don Otreply]

12 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I think most of the pin and pull runs come with Allen under center, which then forces us to throw passes from under center to keep defenses from knowing it's an obvious run.  However, I don't mind it as Allen is exceptional with play action out of those...among the best in the NFL metrics wise. They did do at least one pin and pull run out of shotgun last week that worked pretty well, so they can do it...

Yup, I would think the offense could do just about any pass or run play they want, from just about any formation/set they want to use, it strikes me as odd that Dorsey would find it difficult to do, but hey, what do I know, I’m just a guy sitting on a sailboat on his way to the Bahamas 🇧🇸…, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Here is something I found that gives some insights into Pin and Pull technique...apparently it is something that is relatively new in it's usage and popularity...

 

https://www.viqtorysports.com/pin-pull-what-is-it-and-how-is-it-run/

 

Hmm...that isn't true apparently...the video I just posted says it IS RPO friendly, but to the backside of the play.

 

https://insider.afca.com/xs-os-pin-and-pull-rpo/

 

 

 

So pin and pull left and throw to say diggs on the right with like a slant?  Suppose that makes sense, balls gotta be out quick on any RPO and the pulling action probably moves the will out of the window. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

So pin and pull left and throw to say diggs on the right with like a slant?  Suppose that makes sense, balls gotta be out quick on any RPO and the pulling action probably moves the will out of the window. 

 

Yeah, or leak the RB or WR in motion out the other side on a swing pass.  A lot of the Bills RPO's are  "free access" RPO's where Diggs has a guy playing off and he runs a 5 yard speed out.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[LABILLBACKER]

Our run game (with the current personnel) has always performed better when they pull. Don't understand why we waste plays on zone blocking. It doesn't work. 

[HoofHearted]

16 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Yep - can't run an RPO if linemen are pulling and others are getting out in front of the play.  Either a penalty or they'll crush you at the mesh point.  

This is 100% incorrect. People run RPO's all the time off of Power/Counter looks. Shoot we've run em this year.