How did Allen not dominate in college?

[billsfan1959]

19 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Not to reopen old wounds, but this has been discussed ad nauseum.

 

A -- Josh was a late bloomer

B -- Josh didn't grow up being groomed to play QB, and therefore didn't have the same coaching and reps other high profile recruits had going into college (he wasn't even recruited)

C -- Josh got hurt in his first game at college (shoulder)

 

Anyone who looked closely at the player, beyond the stats, saw what type of kid he was, what athletic ability was there, and what mental ability and drive were there.  It was always going to take some time to let "playing the game" catch up.

 

I'd glad Beane and staff did their homework and didn't rely on the analytics gurus who only look at box scores.

 

 

People didn't want to look closely. They just bought into lazy narratives. 

 

Beane didn't "luck" into Allen. He didn't use all those resources to select a QB at #7 that didn't have what he believed were the traits, abilities and potential to be a franchise QB.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

15 minutes ago, uninja said:

Its possible if you have a crappy offense where you need to make everything happen. 
 

Josh Allen, with nothing but sheer determination and a fastball, willed Wyoming to two bowl appearances and one bowl win. What had that Wyoming team done before and what has it done since? Yeah he was raw and unpolished, but like Elway used to do, just straight up willed his sometimes crappy team to wins. 

 

 

 

I know folks are pretty polarized on (or really ANTI) Tim Tebow, but I mainly think of and remember him as a college player. One of the best college players I've ever seen, at that. And when I watch Josh's will and determination, it very much reminds me of Tebow in his Florida days. Especially in 2008 when they lost an early season game to Ole Miss and afterwards Tebow took to the podium and said "...You have never seen any player in the entire country play as hard as I will play the rest of this season and you'll never see someone push the rest of the team as hard as I will push everybody the rest of this season, and you'll never see a team play harder than we will the rest of this season..." And then he went out and actually DID IT.

 

Watching Josh reminds me a lot of watching 2008 Tim Tebow. Which is a good thing!

[US Egg]

Must be tough for Bronco fans to see JA soar, being he played his college ball in Denver’s backyard.

 

In 2018, chose Bradley Chubb with 5th overall, Case Keenum was the starter following 6-10 season.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by I am the egg man

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - seriously? Obviously the talent level he played with is different in Buffalo but the defensive talent level he plays against is better too. As someone who was skeptical of the pick, the idea that the guy who wasn’t that good in the MWC becoming a better player in the nfl melted my brain.

 

2 - can you think of a player that improved this much from college to the nfl? Brady seems obvious but he actually was better in college than people remember. 
 

 

He did dominate at Wyoming....If you listen to the commentary by Mel Kiper right after Allen was drafted...he mentioned that Wyoming had a very poor record in the 4 years prior to Josh's arrival and then he went 16-9 or something like that...and even some of those 9 losses cames in the season where he lost 3 players to NFL and you cannot reload in Laramie.

[Brand J]

I said it before, I thought we were in trouble when we drafted Allen. It was a traits only pick, no player in CFB history with his stats went on to have great success at the NFL level. He was an All 2nd team MWC player (why not first, I asked?) and had dreadful numbers against every Power 5 team. 
 

When I heard part of Beane’s process was to look at Allen run a play and think “where would Rosen throw here?” Again I thought, “uh oh.” 

When I saw his play at Wyoming, I didn’t think he had the mind that could make the game look easy for him. I didn’t audibly “boo” the pick, but did shake my head - but like all draft picks, including Whitner and Maybin, I supported him and hoped for the best. And I’m glad I and the rest of those pessimistic fans were incredibly wrong. 

 

Josh Allen is one of one, the first player to greatly defy some of the analytical reports that were put out on him prior to the draft (which drove some statisticians to hate him until recently). “Is [insert name here] the next Josh Allen?” No, most likely not. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, Vertig0 said:

Maturity, time and resources. 

 

Cupcake classes or not, he's still in school, taking classes, etc. He can't dedicate 365, 24/7 to his craft in that environment. 

 

And then compare Wyoming's coaching and resources to that of an NFL team (especially one such as the Bills, run by McBeane, which has proven to be one of the best in the league).

 

Add in the money to pay Jordan Palmer, the pure dedication to improve and the time to do so...boom.

Good post. I guess a comparison would be when nba would draft really young players, from high school or one year out, solely based on potential. Sometimes you get a Kobe or KG, and sometimes you get huge busts. 
 

and you’re right do it being able to devote yourself to your craft. Playing a sport in college takes up so much time. You have practice, study hall, lifting, meetings, classes (most schools actually make their players go), class work, studying. And that’s without any social stuff. 
 

but the Allen growth is one of the most amazing things I have ever seen in my life. It’s hard to think a consensus number 1 player who had great success in college could obtain what he’s doing now.  Much less the guy with “accuracy” issues from Wyoming. Major salute to him and the Bills. 

[TampaBillsJunkie]

Time to give credit to his coaching and work ethic. Josh always had the physical tools and arm strength, but the mechanics of his throwing motion and footwork were not in sync. Credit the Bills for developing his potential and Josh for having the right attitude and mindset to constantly improve him self.  One of our awesome posters put up a video interview of Josh explaining what he learned with Jordan Palmer.

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, I am the egg man said:

Must be tough for Bronco fans to see JA soar, being he played his college ball in Denver’s backyard.

 

In 2018, chose Bradley Chubb with 5th overall, Case Keenum was the starter following 6-10 season.

 

I guess the counter is that Denver seems to ruin every qb, no matter drafted or established. Allen might not be the same player there and been like Osweiler. Amazingly, Buffalo is a model of how to develop a qb right now. 

[Riverboat Ritchie]

Jordan Palmer

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, TampaBillsJunkie said:

Time to give credit to his coaching and work ethic. Josh always had the physical tools and arm strength, but the mechanics of his throwing motion and footwork were not in sync. Credit the Bills for developing his potential and Josh for having the right attitude and mindset to constantly improve him self.  One of our awesome posters put up a video interview of Josh explaining what he learned with Jordan Palmer.

For sure. I was so skeptical of the guys with all the “tools” who never really produced.  They bust at extremely high rate. While college stats mean nothing, there should be some sense of a high pick dominating. 
 

and going forward, I’d still be skeptical of those guys. Allen is a beautiful unicorn. 

1 minute ago, Riverboat Ritchie said:

Jordan Palmer

Yeah, I definitely thought he was just hyping up a client. But he was dead on. Too bad it didn’t work for Darnold. 
 

crazy thing is I remember Palmer came up with some bathroom app that I thought was a cool idea hah.

9 minutes ago, ganesh said:

He did dominate at Wyoming....If you listen to the commentary by Mel Kiper right after Allen was drafted...he mentioned that Wyoming had a very poor record in the 4 years prior to Josh's arrival and then he went 16-9 or something like that...and even some of those 9 losses cames in the season where he lost 3 players to NFL and you cannot reload in Laramie.

Fair. It’s just wild that a guy with 56% and 44 td to 21 ints in the mountain west is dominating in the nfl. Wild.

[John from Riverside]

Big piece of clay debol Refined it

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I guess the counter is that Denver seems to ruin every qb, no matter drafted or established. Allen might not be the same player there and been like Osweiler. Amazingly, Buffalo is a model of how to develop a qb right now. 

 

Same thing I used to say about Russel Wilson going to the Seahawks instead of the Bills in the 3rd round.

 

Pete Carroll and staff went through tremendous lengths to support Wilson and ensure his success. Carroll went so far as to have custom footballs made without laces so he could teach Russ to get rid of the ball quickly even if he didnt have the perfect grip. So much stuff like that went into what the Seahawks did to make Russ successful.

 

There is no guarantee Wilson would have received that type of coaching and development under Gailey and crew. Actually, it's pretty certain he would not have. And look at the difference now, ever as an experienced, developed veteran vs how he was performing in Seattle.

 

Yes, a lot of success is up to the player. Certainly, Josh has put in more work than any other QB. But success does not occur in a vacuum. It is very situational in the NFL. You take Josh away from McD and Dabol and Dorsey, and stick him on the Browns with their shitshow carousel of coaches, and it's a whole other story.

[C.Biscuit97]

34 minutes ago, uninja said:

Its possible if you have a crappy offense where you need to make everything happen. 
 

Josh Allen, with nothing but sheer determination and a fastball, willed Wyoming to two bowl appearances and one bowl win. What had that Wyoming team done before and what has it done since? Yeah he was raw and unpolished, but like Elway used to do, just straight up willed his sometimes crappy team to wins. 

 

 

True. To be fair to Wyoming, they have had 2 winning seasons since Allen left. 

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Big piece of clay debol Refined it

Very true. And daboll’s resume was very spotty before he got Allen. I’d like to credit McBeane but I think he has to be more Beane. Who was the awful OC before Daboll?

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Same thing I used to say about Russel Wilson going to the Seahawks instead of the Bills in the 3rd round.

 

Pete Carroll and staff went through tremendous lengths to support Wilson and ensure his success. Carroll went so far as to have custom footballs made without laces so he could teach Russ to get rid of the ball quickly even if he didnt have the perfect grip. So much stuff like that went into what the Seahawks did to make Russ successful.

 

There is no guarantee Wilson would have received that type of coaching and development under Gailey and crew. Actually, it's pretty certain he would not have. And look at the difference now, ever as an experienced, developed veteran vs how he was performing in Seattle.

 

Yes, a lot of success is up to the player. Certainly, Josh has put in more work than any other QB. But success does not occur in a vacuum. It is very situational in the NFL. You take Josh away from McD and Dabol and Dorsey, and stick him on the Browns with their shitshow carousel of coaches, and it's a whole other story.

I actually think Gailey was a good qb teacher and one of the dumbest things they did was not to draft a guy to learn under him and Fitz.  But agree with everything else.

1 hour ago, Greg S said:

 

Good thing he wasn't at Bama. He would have been dominant there and gotten all the attention. Then Browns probably pick him at #1 or worse the Jets at #3. Nobody cares about Wyoming and the "experts" said accuracy issues. He falls under the radar. Thankfully Beane sees what a special QB he can be and the rest is history.

It is crazy to think of Allen playing at Bama. A guy like MacJones is the complete opposite of Allen to me. Very limited guy who put up numbers playing with all blue chippers. I was very happy the Pats took him. He’s not awful but I will never be afraid of Mac and Cheese. 

[C.Biscuit97]

57 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

I assume his college coaching must have been dreadful

His coach was Wentz’ coach (not looking as great now).  But he has developed 2 high pick 1st rounders. I can’t imagine he believes how good Allen is. 

[NewEra]

He was inaccurate and needed a QB coach that could teach him how to throw accurately.  
 

He needed more experience and needed to be educated on reading defenses/coverages and improve on his pre snap reads.  
 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Wyoming.

 

/thread

 

[Greg S]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

True. To be fair to Wyoming, they have had 2 winning seasons since Allen left. 

Very true. And daboll’s resume was very spotty before he got Allen. I’d like to credit McBeane but I think he has to be more Beane. Who was the awful OC before Daboll?

I actually think Gailey was a good qb teacher and one of the dumbest things they did was not to draft a guy to learn under him and Fitz.  But agree with everything else.

It is crazy to think of Allen playing at Bama. A guy like MacJones is the complete opposite of Allen to me. Very limited guy who put up numbers playing with all blue chippers. I was very happy the Pats took him. He’s not awful but I will never be afraid of Mac and Cheese. 

 

He might lose the starting job to Zappe. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Not to reopen old wounds, but this has been discussed ad nauseum.

 

A -- Josh was a late bloomer

B -- Josh didn't grow up being groomed to play QB, and therefore didn't have the same coaching and reps other high profile recruits had going into college (he wasn't even recruited)

C -- Josh got hurt in his first game at college (shoulder)

 

Anyone who looked closely at the player, beyond the stats, saw what type of kid he was, what athletic ability was there, and what mental ability and drive were there.  It was always going to take some time to let "playing the game" catch up.

 

I'd glad Beane and staff did their homework and didn't rely on the analytics gurus who only look at box scores.

 

Bingo.  I read that the only football camp Allen attended was at Fresno State and they put him with the kids they weren't interested in. Apparently Allen did not attend any elite QB camps or training practices.  He was a raw talent coming out of HS and it was only after NFL level experts began to evaluate his tool set that they realized he could be elite.

 

I clearly remember watching Allen play a number of times on the late night espn college broadcasts.  I remember thinking that the kid was phenomenal and he did things NO other QB in college football was doing.  I thought that the Bills should take a flyer on the guy and grab him in the 3rd or 4th round.  Then a couple of months later I'm reading that he was a potentially high 1st round pick!  I can truly say that I was thrilled when the Bills drafted Allen.

 

 

 

 

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Not even looking at the passing stats college vs. pros, the more surprising thing to me is Allen actually seems more dangerous as a runner at the NFL level than he was at the college level. That is something that is pretty rare, I think. 

He said hes gotten faster since college and the more weight he carries the faster he gets.  I think part of it was that he was a late bloomer physically and was still growing into an adult body even in college.

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, without a drought said:

Face it, he's just not that good

This may very well be true. He didn't even make the PRO BOWL last year. Finished outside the Top 10 of NFL player ranking at a paltry 13, I believe. We may be stuck in QB purgatory, guys. If I'm not mistaken, the Bears have a QB by the name of Nate Peterman just sitting there on their practice squad. We would be smart to kick the tires on him. He was so pro ready coming out and frankly...head to head in a QB battle I believe Peterman would win and be QB1.