Was it Allen or Daboll?

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Charles Romes said:

I was one of those who thought it was all-Allen. In fact, in my view Allen carried Daboll all four years. However, looking at the astonishing reclamation going on in New York, it’s difficult to ignore the possibility that the Bills lucked out by having an all-time quarterback whisperer on staff when Allen arrived. Allen would have become great no matter who coached him, but possibly not this level of great. 

 

Make no mistake about it, Allen was going to be this Allen no matter what.  People keep forgetting, the person TRULY responsible for Allens progress is Jordan Palmer and all the offseason work Allen puts in to get better.  Allen has a Kobe like mentality where he wants to outwork everyone else and a tireless drive to be the best version of himself he can be.  

 

Allen made huge leaps between walking off the football field for the last time at Wyoming to the draft.  All from work he did with Palmer.  Every off season, Allen has committed himself with Palmer to improve an area of his game.  Early on it was mechanics...then accuracy...then ball placement and deep ball accuracy...now this last offseason it was YAC.  And Bills went from near last in YAC last year to the top of the NFL this year.  

 

Daboll did great things with him and the offense while he was here, but Allens development and improvement was a combo of Allens drive and commitment along with Palmers offseason programs.  

 

What Daboll is proving to be though is a great coach.  Having a great coach for Allen was also a great value, and one of the most important parts of Daboll's coaching style is the legitimate close bond he forms with his players.  So not taking anything away from Daboll, but Allen was gonna be Allen no matter who the OC was.  Hats off to him in NY, he is off to a great start.  And they have a soft schedule coming up and could legitimately be 9-1 come week 10.  They still are not a "great" football team as in a real contender IMHO, but they are a motivated and scrappy team, and that credit all belongs to the new staff and front office on how they came in to change the culture.  

 

Just like how McD's first year...we were not a great football team, but we were tough and scrappy and McD got the most out of the guys out there every week.  

[BuffaloBills1998]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Unfortunately for him, they are screwing up their draft position by winning meaningless games. They may not even make the playoffs. They have to contend with the Eagles and Cowboys in their division. 

Cowboys are a mess all together. Neither Dak or Cooper are any good and Elliott is washed up. Eagles they’ll have a tough time at playing against. But I agree, Daboll and company are screwing up this teams future

[Rigotz]

Why is everyone crowning the Giants and Daboll a great tandem?

 

Yes, they are 5-1, but they're ranked #25 in offensive yards per game and they're ranked #15 in defensive yards per game...

 

Here's how they've gotten there:

- Beat the Titans by 1 point. Titans are garbage.

- Beat the Panthers by 3 points. Panthers are garbage.

- Lost to the Cowboys, who are not very good.

- Beat the Bears by 8, who are garbage.

- Beat GB, who just got smoked by the Jets the next week.

- Beat Baltimore -- good win.

 

Can we wait until the end of the season before crowning Daboll the King of the NFL and creator of Josh Allen?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Rigotz said:

Why is everyone crowning the Giants and Daboll a great tandem?

 

Yes, they are 5-1, but they're ranked #25 in offensive yards per game and they're ranked #15 in defensive yards per game...

 

Here's how they've gotten there:

- Beat the Titans by 1 point. Titans are garbage.

- Beat the Panthers by 3 points. Panthers are garbage.

- Lost to the Cowboys, who are not very good.

- Beat the Bears by 8, who are garbage.

- Beat GB, who just got smoked by the Jets the next week.

- Beat Baltimore -- good win.

 

Can we wait until the end of the season before crowning Daboll the King of the NFL and creator of Josh Allen?

 

Nobody is doing that. People are just saying there was a narrative that Daboll was just some fat bloke who sat in the box and screwed everything up while being bailed out by Josh Allen. That narrative was plainly false. It was false then. It's false now. They don't have many quality wins, sure. But they also don't have many quality players and yet are 5-1. Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll know what they are doing. 

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Unfortunately for him, they are screwing up their draft position by winning meaningless games. They may not even make the playoffs. They have to contend with the Eagles and Cowboys in their division. 

 

So I had a peak at the Giants schedule.  If we assume they lose to the Seahawks, to the Cowboys again, to the Eagles x 2, to the Vikings, and maybe 1 other team, they would finish 10-6 or 9-7 and make the playoffs as a WC team.  Kind of similar to what McDermott did with the Bills his first season.

 

Keep in mind Joe Schoen is probably very much a Brandon Beane diciple.  In that mold, he thinks culture change is important, and he's likely willing to wheel and deal in the draft to get whoever they want at QB.  So Schoen and Daboll may be aligned in thinking culture is of equal or greater importance than draft position.

 

A new coach who needs to find key franchise players has sort of a paradox, doesn't he?  He wants to win enough to change the culture to one where guys go hard all the time all season long and don't "phone it in", but not TOO much so as to give them too high a draft position.  9 or 10 wins and a possible WC playoff berth are probably just right.

 

 

 

[nedboy7]

Why is someone always carrying the other.  WTF is up with these simpleton takes.  They both suck ok? 

[Rigotz]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody is doing that. People are just saying there was a narrative that Daboll was just some fat bloke who sat in the box and screwed everything up while being bailed out by Josh Allen. That narrative was plainly false. It was false then. It's false now. They don't have many quality wins, sure. But they also don't have many quality players and yet are 5-1. Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll know what they are doing. 

 

Lets revisit this at the end of the season

[mrags]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

So I had a peak at the Giants schedule.  If we assume they lose to the Seahawks, to the Cowboys again, to the Eagles x 2, to the Vikings, and maybe 1 other team, they would finish 10-6 or 9-7 and make the playoffs as a WC team.  Kind of similar to what McDermott did with the Bills his first season.

 

Keep in mind Joe Schoen is probably very much a Brandon Beane diciple.  In that mold, he thinks culture change is important, and he's likely willing to wheel and deal in the draft to get whoever they want at QB.  So Schoen and Daboll may be aligned in thinking culture is of equal or greater importance than draft position.

 

A new coach who needs to find key franchise players has sort of a paradox, doesn't he?  He wants to win enough to change the culture to one where guys go hard all the time all season long and don't "phone it in", but not TOO much so as to give them too high a draft position.  9 or 10 wins and a possible WC playoff berth are probably just right.

 

 

 

I agree with the culture aspect of it. I am just not sure 9 wins gets in. Even 10 possibly. Right now things are a mess but things are going to change throughout the season. I firmly believe they will be the 3rd team in the NFCE and I’m not sore that gets them in. I absolutely could see it happening just like the Bills in 17 though. But I think it’s gonna be tough. They will sorely lose some games coming up. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Rigotz said:

 

Lets revisit this at the end of the season

 

Revisit what? 

[Simon Says]

Let's be judicious in the use of words like "all time", "great" etc.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Cowboys are a mess all together. Neither Dak or Cooper are any good and Elliott is washed up. Eagles they’ll have a tough time at playing against. But I agree, Daboll and company are screwing up this teams future

 

Dak is fine when healthy and their defense is good. On the flip side Zeke is definitely washed and they should move off him and their coach is a walking, talking moron. 

[ToGoGo]

5-1 is surprisingly impressive, no doubt.

 

But Daboll is doing what he did here, leaning on a generational talent. But there has been no improvement in Daniel Jones so far, so they're already on to Plan B. That's the main reason he was brought in, right? What happened there? It's not like Jones lacks natural talent. 

 

I'm assuming Daboll will get a chance to draft his own QB in the next draft (or FA). I think that will be a good barometer to measure Daboll vs Allen. If Daboll's guy becomes a good starter, and even slightly exceeds expectations, I think I would be comfortable saying Daboll played a bigger part in Allen than we thought.

 

Until then, I see Daboll as a guy who uses all the talent he has at his disposal to the max, regardless of long-term consequences. I have a hard time forgiving him for running Allen into the ground the last 2 years. Dorsey is showing how running a QB is done. 

[Beck Water]

34 minutes ago, mrags said:

I agree with the culture aspect of it. I am just not sure 9 wins gets in. Even 10 possibly. Right now things are a mess but things are going to change throughout the season. I firmly believe they will be the 3rd team in the NFCE and I’m not sore that gets them in. I absolutely could see it happening just like the Bills in 17 though. But I think it’s gonna be tough. They will sorely lose some games coming up. 

 

I certainly understand your point that 9-7 may not be enough.  Wasn't in 2014 or 2004 for the Bills and yeah, some years 10-6 teams have missed. 

 

I'm not sure I buy that the Giants will be #3 in the NFCE.  Are you counting on the Cowboys to "cowboy up"?  They have a good defense, but I haven't been impressed at all with their offense.  I don't think Cooper Rush is good enough to get them there, but I also think their offense looked very unfocused in the game with Dak.  So we'll see.

 

Worth noting the Giants have 2 games over every team in  the NFCW and NFCS

 

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dak is fine when healthy and their defense is good. On the flip side Zeke is definitely washed and they should move off him and their coach is a walking, talking moron. 

 

Well, we only saw him for 1 game.  But I thought he didn't look sharp.  Maybe it was their O-line.  'Course any player can have a bad play or series of plays or a bad game.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Beck Water

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Gotta wonder if ole Wink is being missed in Baltimore? 

Ravens fans regret him leaving. They are borderline apoplectic that he left and Harbaugh is still there. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

not all allen. brian helped him along with his development but allen was already going to be allen. a fierce competitor that will give everything thing he's got to win football games.

 

 

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, mrags said:

I mean is Jones really that special that what the Giants are doing is telling you Daboll is a QB whisperer? He hasn’t thrown for over 2TDs or 217 yards all season. The Giants aren’t winning because Jones, they are winning with good defense and the best RB (comeback player of the year) in Barkley 

 

 

This^^^

[KHAN]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

P.S. Josh Allen "that alien unicorn" would make Nathaniel Hackett look good.

 

I just threw up a little at the thought.

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

I was one of those who thought it was all-Allen. In fact, in my view Allen carried Daboll all four years. However, looking at the astonishing reclamation going on in New York, it’s difficult to ignore the possibility that the Bills lucked out by having an all-time quarterback whisperer on staff when Allen arrived. Allen would have become great no matter who coached him, but possibly not this level of great. 

 

I disagree with your statement that "Allen would have become great no matter who coached him" because I remember how raw Allen was as a rookie.   It took him about 2 1/2 years of hard work by Allen and strong mentoring by Daboll and Dorsey to get Allen to where he is today.   Offensive coordinators have to tailor their offense to fit the QB they have rather than try to force their QB to fit into their "system".   Pair Allen with another OC who would have tried to mold him into something he wasn't or wouldn't have hired a QB coach who had success with a raw but talented QB (ie,Cam Newton), and Allen could have become just another big-armed bust.   The history of the NFL is littered with promising QBs who never made it big for one reason or another, at least some of whom never were in the right system to maximize their talents or were never given the mentoring that might have made them significantly better.  I think that Daniel Jones may be the poster boy for that.  He certainly doesn't look anything like the QB he was in previous seasons ... but then, the Giants don't look like the team that most pundits expected them to be, either.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, we only saw him for 1 game.  But I thought he didn't look sharp.  Maybe it was their O-line.  'Course any player can have a bad play or series of plays or a bad game.

 

Yea Dak was bad in the opener. But I don't see any reason to expect that is going to continue rather than what he has done in the past.

[warrior9]

The Giants are taking the same approach the Bills did in year 1 and 2 with Allen. 

 

Get players that know your scheme enough to compete and win... while building your culture.

 

Rely on a strong defense while leveraging what you can on offense until you can bring in your guys (and getting rid of dead caps, etc)