Running Backs Being a Dime a Dozen ??

[Solomon Grundy]

20 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Relax.  Watch my Yankees tonight.  🤣

The Mariners blew my high last night. I need the Astros gone 

[Billz4ever]

15 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

The New York Giants ar #26 at 69%.

 

Saquon Barkley is #2 in the NFL with 533 Yards Rushing and 5.5 YPC.

 

#1 Rusher in the NFL, Nick Chubb, has 593 yards and 6.1 YPC with the #17 line. 

 

#5 rusher Dameon Pierce has 412 yards (2 behind #4) and 4.8 YPC and is a rookie with the #31 line.

 

Meanwhile the #1 line in the league with James Connor rushing has only 200 yards and 3.7 YPC.

 

This only illustrates the importance of the skill of your RB, skilled RB with an NFL line will be productive. And if you don't have skill at RB you aren't going to produce.  

When you look at the YPC for our backs, you will see you're wrong.  They get more carries than our backs.  Sounds like you want to take the ball out of Josh's hand and give to a RB in the hopes of having anywhere near the offensive output Josh gets.

[ArtVandalay]

4 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

When you look at the YPC for our backs, you will see you're wrong.  They get more carries than our backs.  Sounds like you want to take the ball out of Josh's hand and give to a RB in the hopes of having anywhere near the offensive output Josh gets.

That's not remotely what i said at all.  I have no idea what post you were reading lmao 🤣

 

Also, you realize that it is harder to maintain a higher YPC with more volume right?

Edited October 12, 2022 by ArtVandalay

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

The New York Giants ar #26 at 69%.

 

Saquon Barkley is #2 in the NFL with 533 Yards Rushing and 5.5 YPC.

 

#1 Rusher in the NFL, Nick Chubb, has 593 yards and 6.1 YPC with the #17 line. 

 

#5 rusher Dameon Pierce has 412 yards (2 behind #4) and 4.8 YPC and is a rookie with the #31 line.

 

Meanwhile the #1 line in the league with James Connor rushing has only 200 yards and 3.7 YPC.

 

This only illustrates the importance of the skill of your RB, skilled RB with an NFL line will be productive. And if you don't have skill at RB you aren't going to produce.  

 

We are in Shotgun considerably more than the giants, browns, or texans.  We're still trying to figure out how to more effectively run from shotgun.

 

What we're not going to do is play more under center to fix our run game... then break our passing game that's torching most teams.

 

Barkley has 62 under center carries vs 35 shotgun carries.

Chubb has 76 and 22.

Pierce has 65 and 21.

Singletary has 20 and 20.

  

We're never under center, and when we are we tend to not do as well.  We tend to switch to under center in obvious running situations and we suck at short yardage for that reason.  We also score more points than all of these teams.  

 

The Browns are 2-3 with wins over carolina and pittsburgh, and losses to the jets and falcons.  Their offense is doing well but that's not exactly murderers row of defenses, and they are a unique matchup team since they have a very weak passing attack and play with more of a power running style.

 

The Giants have one of the worst passing offenses in the league, and the texans have one of the worst offenses in the league.  What good are rushing yards if you dont score points? 

[Billz4ever]

1 hour ago, ArtVandalay said:

That's not remotely what i said at all.  I have no idea what post you were reading lmao 🤣

 

Also, you realize that it is harder to maintain a higher YPC with more volume right?

You clearly want to take the ball out of Josh's hands because you're jealous of the Giants running game.  LMAO

[ArtVandalay]

5 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

You clearly want to take the ball out of Josh's hands because you're jealous of the Giants running game.  LMAO

Again didn't say any of this, you are really in your own world here having a conversation that doesn't exist. 

6 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

We are in Shotgun considerably more than the giants, browns, or texans.  We're still trying to figure out how to more effectively run from shotgun.

 

What we're not going to do is play more under center to fix our run game... then break our passing game that's torching most teams.

 

Barkley has 62 under center carries vs 35 shotgun carries.

Chubb has 76 and 22.

Pierce has 65 and 21.

Singletary has 20 and 20.

  

We're never under center, and when we are we tend to not do as well.  We tend to switch to under center in obvious running situations and we suck at short yardage for that reason.  We also score more points than all of these teams.  

 

The Browns are 2-3 with wins over carolina and pittsburgh, and losses to the jets and falcons.  Their offense is doing well but that's not exactly murderers row of defenses, and they are a unique matchup team since they have a very weak passing attack and play with more of a power running style.

 

The Giants have one of the worst passing offenses in the league, and the texans have one of the worst offenses in the league.  What good are rushing yards if you dont score points? 

Right, we have the best QB in the NFL and throw a lot, I think everyone understands this.  I was merely illustrating that our line is not at fault for our rushing game, it is the running backs, and plenty of tabs are successful rushing without top line play due to RB ability.

Edited October 13, 2022 by ArtVandalay

[Dr.Sack]

Running is easier than passing for teams with average to below average QBs. 

[GunnerBill]

On 10/11/2022 at 7:58 PM, gobills404 said:

The Raiders and Jets don't have have bad O-lines though....

 

Run block win rate rankings per ESPN:

Raiders - 2nd

Jets - 12th

Texans - 31st

Bills - 32nd

 

Yards per carry:

Jacobs - 5.4

Hall - 4.9

Pierce - 4.8

Bills RBs - 4.7

 

Nearly a perfect correlation.

 

 

 

Yep. There is the odd elite running back who can succeed even with poor blocking but they are very rare. The overwhelming majority of backs are as productive as their blocking allows them to be. 

[JoPoy88]

13 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

The New York Giants ar #26 at 69%.

 

Saquon Barkley is #2 in the NFL with 533 Yards Rushing and 5.5 YPC.

 

#1 Rusher in the NFL, Nick Chubb, has 593 yards and 6.1 YPC with the #17 line. 

 

#5 rusher Dameon Pierce has 412 yards (2 behind #4) and 4.8 YPC and is a rookie with the #31 line.

 

Meanwhile the #1 line in the league with James Connor rushing has only 200 yards and 3.7 YPC.

 

This only illustrates the importance of the skill of your RB, skilled RB with an NFL line will be productive. And if you don't have skill at RB you aren't going to produce.  

and Josh Allen averages 12.6 yards per completion with 26.6 average completions per game. I simply don’t care about an elite running game. Passing is more efficient and more effective. “Fans” trying to drag this team back into the stone age need to find another team.

[gtw3]

I really don't understand why so many fans are so persistent with this desire to change our offense to be more reliant on the run.  That was us for 20 years.  From Henry to Shady, we have had a steady stream of above average running backs that would get their 20 carries for 100 yards and lead us to a whopping 7-9 record while Brady would throw it all over the place as they counted their trophies. 

 

We were tantalizingly close to hosting the AFC Championship game and being heavily favored to go to the super bowl last year.  We are the betting favorites to win it all this year.  Our QB is the betting favorite to win the MVP. 

 

Our offense is not broken. 

[Billz4ever]

9 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

Again didn't say any of this, you are really in your own world here having a conversation that doesn't exist. 

Right, we have the best QB in the NFL and throw a lot, I think everyone understands this.  I was merely illustrating that our line is not at fault for our rushing game, it is the running backs, and plenty of tabs are successful rushing without top line play due to RB ability.

Our line is statistically the worst run blocking line in the league and you're claiming they have zero responsibility here?  Oh, my.

[benderbender]

21 minutes ago, gtw3 said:

I really don't understand why so many fans are so persistent with this desire to change our offense to be more reliant on the run. 

Not reliant, but it would be nice for it to be a realistic option. How awesome would it be if opposing teams had to game plan for our RBs? It sounds crazy, I know. Preparing for the run is 50% of prep for playing the Titans. Having a rushing attack would make play action actually believable instead of it just being a ritual before a pass play. It would give us something to do when we have a lead that doesn't involve running a QB sweep with the future of our franchise. I'm just hoping that Kromer is breaking out some revolutionary run blocking scheme that just is taking 6 weeks to start seeing results.

[T master]

1 hour ago, gtw3 said:

I really don't understand why so many fans are so persistent with this desire to change our offense to be more reliant on the run.  That was us for 20 years.  From Henry to Shady, we have had a steady stream of above average running backs that would get their 20 carries for 100 yards and lead us to a whopping 7-9 record while Brady would throw it all over the place as they counted their trophies. 

 

We were tantalizingly close to hosting the AFC Championship game and being heavily favored to go to the super bowl last year.  We are the betting favorites to win it all this year.  Our QB is the betting favorite to win the MVP. 

 

Our offense is not broken. 

 

No it's not and i don't believe anyone is saying to change the Bills offense i was saying just adding another dementionto the offense because as i said in the original post if there is a defense out there that can lock down our passing game the Bills are screwed .

 

I don't know if you are old enough to remember the Bills first SB they were the best offense in the league & the Giants shut it down the Bills D in that game were based by the end of it & they lost by 1 point & that's all it takes to lose I'm not at all saying that is going to happen but it could .

 

I would just like to have a added detention to make this team even more unstoppable than they seem to be now not talking about changing just adding to !

[3rdand12]

13 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Running is easier than passing for teams with average to below average QBs. 

Necessary ? 

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. There is the odd elite running back who can succeed even with poor blocking but they are very rare. The overwhelming majority of backs are as productive as their blocking allows them to be. 

yep

5 hours ago, benderbender said:

Not reliant, but it would be nice for it to be a realistic option. How awesome would it be if opposing teams had to game plan for our RBs? It sounds crazy, I know. Preparing for the run is 50% of prep for playing the Titans. Having a rushing attack would make play action actually believable instead of it just being a ritual before a pass play. It would give us something to do when we have a lead that doesn't involve running a QB sweep with the future of our franchise. I'm just hoping that Kromer is breaking out some revolutionary run blocking scheme that just is taking 6 weeks to start seeing results.

I agree the Bills should Always be working on improving the run game via Kromer and likely why he is here finally.
 But do not expect a cloud of dust ( or turf pebbles) type of Offense anytime soon

[ArtVandalay]

15 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

and Josh Allen averages 12.6 yards per completion with 26.6 average completions per game. I simply don’t care about an elite running game. Passing is more efficient and more effective. “Fans” trying to drag this team back into the stone age need to find another team.

Holy straw man! I mean a guess it is scarecrow season so what better time?

 

No one is recommending this, try reading. 

11 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

Our line is statistically the worst run blocking line in the league and you're claiming they have zero responsibility here?  Oh, my.

There's an entire discussion with statistics and everything. You could read it.

[JoPoy88]

3 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

Holy straw man! I mean a guess it is scarecrow season so what better time?

 

No one is recommending this, try reading. 

There's an entire discussion with statistics and everything. You could read it.

no one’s recommending what? There are multiple people suggesting our backs aren’t good enough and looking to secure someone like CMC for his apparent “eliteness.” So yes I read it and reject it. No strawman proposed genius. Just a counterpoint that with Allen and this passing game someone like CMC (or Josh Jacobs, etc…) isn’t necessary. check your dictionary.

[ArtVandalay]

13 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

no one’s recommending what? There are multiple people suggesting our backs aren’t good enough and looking to secure someone like CMC for his apparent “eliteness.” So yes I read it and reject it. No strawman proposed genius. Just a counterpoint that with Allen and this passing game someone like CMC (or Josh Jacobs, etc…) isn’t necessary. check your dictionary.

This is what you said:

“Fans” trying to drag this team back into the stone age need to find another team.

 

Show me these people are arguing we throw too much and need to be a run heavy offense... I'll wait. 

 

Monster difference between that having an effective running back (who can also contribute as a receiver) who can contribute at a more effective level do we aren't relying on Josh to run it himself on designed runs and do we aren't 1- dimensional especially come winter.

 

It's pretty straight forward what this is, a discussion about our RB talent and production, with the counted point being to the line play and their impact to the run game. 

 

Absolutely no one is saying such this offense and become a run heavy team. 

[Alphadawg7]

RB's are not a dime a dozen, at least not good or great ones.  

 

This gets constantly misused and misstated...the reality of where this came from is merely from the fact a lot of very good or better RB's have come outside the first round of the draft.  But so has the best WR's too, but people don't say they are a dime a dozen.  The majority of the best WR's in the NFL came in rounds 2 or later.  Same with OL for example, which is probably even more important than "who" is running the ball as a great OL can make even a mediocre RB look good.  

 

Yet the only position the "dime a dozen" label gets used on is RB.  And the reason I think that happens is because people see the RB position in general as devalued in what has become a pass dominant league.  And now having a shift where you are seeing more and more QB's come in and have throwing success with the ability to also run the ball (Allen, Lamar, Mahomes, Herbert, Jalen, Wilson, etc), it only further has diminished the perceived value of the RB.  

 

But truth is, finding a good to great RB isn't all that easy, and even if you do, you can limit their effectiveness if you don't have a strong OL, or a good passing attack to keep them from stacking the box, etc.  A good to great RB isn't just a good ball carrier, they are a good receiving option and also need to be good in pass protection.  Its just not easy to find a complete package like that.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

RB's are not a dime a dozen, at least not good or great ones.  

 

This gets constantly misused and misstated...the reality of where this came from is merely from the fact a lot of very good or better RB's have come outside the first round of the draft.  But so has the best WR's too, but people don't say they are a dime a dozen.  The majority of the best WR's in the NFL came in rounds 2 or later.  Same with OL for example, which is probably even more important than "who" is running the ball as a great OL can make even a mediocre RB look good.  

 

Yet the only position the "dime a dozen" label gets used on is RB.  And the reason I think that happens is because people see the RB position in general as devalued in what has become a pass dominant league.  And now having a shift where you are seeing more and more QB's come in and have throwing success with the ability to also run the ball (Allen, Lamar, Mahomes, Herbert, Jalen, Wilson, etc), it only further has diminished the perceived value of the RB.  

 

But truth is, finding a good to great RB isn't all that easy, and even if you do, you can limit their effectiveness if you don't have a strong OL, or a good passing attack to keep them from stacking the box, etc.  A good to great RB isn't just a good ball carrier, they are a good receiving option and also need to be good in pass protection.  Its just not easy to find a complete package like that.  

 

I think part of the challenge is determining a value.  Usage to me doesn't equate to value.  Often the complete package is determined to be a better option than 2 or 3 incomplete packages, and I'm not really sure if this is true (outside of fantasy) .

 

Take Mixon for example - over his last 4 years he has been a running back workhorse and generally a "complete" running back.  He has averaged 3.91 YPC and has scored on 2.8% of carries, while earning 7.33 yards per catch.  Zach Moss has averaged 4.08 YPC, has scored on 3.5% of carries, and 7.25 yards per catch for his career - and we can probably all agree the way he's played this year we can consider him at the very least "replacement level".  

 

Mixon signed a deal last year for 4yr 48million.  I think looking at the numbers above and also during time missed for injury in 2020, he wasn't any more effective than the combination of Perine, Bernard, and Trayveon Williams.  They can probably get similar production from a stable of rookie contracts or moderately priced free agents.  

 

Le'veon bell is another example - he held out multiple times trying to get that extension and sat out all of 2018.  In 2018 Pittsburgh rushed for fewer yards, but they did so in far fewer plays and with greater efficiency.

 

Bell - 321 for 1291 9 TDs and 85 catches for 655 and 2 TDs

Conner/Samuels - 271 for 1229 12 TDs, 81 catches for 696 and 4 TDs.

[NewEra]

While it will never happen….It would be amazing to see Saquon and Josh in the same backfield.  Oh my.