Justice Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 I was thinking about this earlier today and I'm kind've conflicted. I have him in front of Thomas Smith and Antoine Winfield because of his overall ability of tackling, covering and punt returns. I also have him in front of a bunch of other obvious guys such as Ken Irvin, Morlon Kerner, JD Williams etc etc. The only CB that gives Nate Clements any comp is Nate Odomes. Nate Odomes made some huge plays in his day. The strip and TD return against Denver in Buffalo on primetime comes to mind as well as the pick he had against The Houston Oilers and Warren Moon. If I had to rank them it'll probably be: 1. Clements. He does it all! 2. Odomes. Great cover guy with good hands. 3. Winfield. The best tackling CB I've ever seen. 4. Thomas Smith. Hands of stone but he still shut down opposing WR's. 5. Jeff Burris. Decent CB. 6. Kerner. This guy looked like he was gonna be one helluva baller until he got injured. Didn't he shut Jerry Rice down in 98 or was that in 96 when Darick Holmes fumbled the ball on the goalline at San Fran when Rice was still good? 7. Ken Irvin. 8 & 9. Toss up. Between the punt catcher and JD Williams. They both stunk. 10. Everyone else.
Pete Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 I was thinking about this earlier today and I'm kind've conflicted. I have him in front of Thomas Smith and Antoine Winfield because of his overall ability of tackling, covering and punt returns. I also have him in front of a bunch of other obvious guys such as Ken Irvin, Morlon Kerner, JD Williams etc etc. The only CB that gives Nate Clements any comp is Nate Odomes. Nate Odomes made some huge plays in his day. The strip and TD return against Denver in Buffalo on primetime comes to mind as well as the pick he had against The Houston Oilers and Warren Moon. If I had to rank them it'll probably be: 1. Clements. He does it all! 2. Odomes. Great cover guy with good hands. 3. Winfield. The best tackling CB I've ever seen. 4. Kerner. This guy looked like he was gonna be one helluva baller until he got injured. Didn't he shut Jerry Rice down in 98 or was that in 96 when Darick Holmes fumbled the ball on the goalline at San Fran when Rice was still good? 5. Ken Irvin. 6. Toss up. Between Gordon and JD Williams. They both stunk. 337983[/snapback] Pretty spot on. Derrick Burroughs was a very solid CB for us who was only gonna get better
MrLocke Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Terrence Mcgee? I think he should be between Irvin and Jd Williams/ Chris Watson.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 I was thinking about this earlier today and I'm kind've conflicted. I have him in front of Thomas Smith and Antoine Winfield because of his overall ability of tackling, covering and punt returns. I also have him in front of a bunch of other obvious guys such as Ken Irvin, Morlon Kerner, JD Williams etc etc. The only CB that gives Nate Clements any comp is Nate Odomes. Nate Odomes made some huge plays in his day. The strip and TD return against Denver in Buffalo on primetime comes to mind as well as the pick he had against The Houston Oilers and Warren Moon. If I had to rank them it'll probably be: 1. Clements. He does it all! 2. Odomes. Great cover guy with good hands. 3. Winfield. The best tackling CB I've ever seen. 4. Thomas Smith. Hands of stone but he still shut down opposing WR's. 5. Jeff Burris. Decent CB. 6. Kerner. This guy looked like he was gonna be one helluva baller until he got injured. Didn't he shut Jerry Rice down in 98 or was that in 96 when Darick Holmes fumbled the ball on the goalline at San Fran when Rice was still good? 7. Ken Irvin. 8 & 9. Toss up. Between the punt catcher and JD Williams. They both stunk. 10. Everyone else. 337983[/snapback] The last 15 years really leaves out a number of Bills CBs like Butch Byrd or Bokker Edgerson who names are well respected in Bills history. I think Clements is pretty good, but I seill have AW in front of him as a player I woud prefer to have as my #1 CB because I think he was a better cover guy and his tackling ability actually influenced the game in a single-handed way. Clements certainly was the glitzier player virtually right from the start when he took apicl off of Peyton Manning and took it to the house. However, even in the modern day of last year its feast or famine with Clements. He was great taking down picks and continuing to take them to the house last year. He deserved his Pro Bowl nod as better CBs chosen got hurt and he demonstrated the ability to take a punt return to the house. However, his great production was bookended by him getting taken to the cleaners by Jimmy Smith when he unecessarily went for the INT leading to the loss against Jax and he left a ball on the carpet against Pittsburgh. AW had a clear failing in that he could not produce INTs, but the way he shut down Tony Gonzales in a game against KC and the way he took down Jax TE for losses in a game last year showed how one player can virtually dominate play for the CB position. Clements was great and a big part of me being comfortable with letting AW walk when FA called. However, the development of McGee, owning an old-had like Vincent and having some good current nickels and future prospects I am comfortable challenging them to step up like Thomas, Greer and even the new draftee makes me comfortable with Clements walking if so dictated by the salary cap (likely the cap will go up a huge amount with the TV contracts so we will be able to pay Clements far more than a person is worth and keep him a Bill). Clements will actually need to produce like he did last year to even securely be #4 on my list. I love Nate Odomers as a shutdown corner and as the man in big games and give me AW as my #2. I probably rank Clements ahead of Smith because he never produced INTs, but Clements faux pas against Jaxand Pitt still gall me so I want another year before I put him securely in my top 3.
Lori Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 FF-S, don't forget that Clements also picked Maddox for a TD in that Pittsburgh game. Even though he can drive us all nuts at times (yeah, fourth-and-fourteen comes quickly to mind), he may well be closer to an 'elite' CB than many of us -- myself included -- give him credit for. Factoid: Clements has now led the Bills in INTs in each of his four seasons in Buffalo. Mark Kelso and Charles Romes are the only other players in team history to do that three seasons in a row....
VABills Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Good attempt, but I have heard from numerous sources that Winfield is probably flat out one of the best if not best shutdown corners in the league. He may have been short but he flat out was the best we had. Bad hands, but never beat.
Simon Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 FF-S, don't forget that Clements also picked Maddox for a TD in that Pittsburgh game. He also forced 2 fumbles, tipped a pass that was picked, completely shut down his side of the field and was second on the Bills D with 7 tackles. With all due respect to PhatPat's monster effort in his last game in a Bills uni, Clements was the best player on the field in the biggest game of the year. Even though he can drive us all nuts at times (yeah, fourth-and-fourteen comes quickly to mind) I find it interesting that that is the only play that ever comes to mind. Did Nate Clements go 16 straight games only giving up a single play to a HOF-caliber receiver? he may well be closer to an 'elite' CB than many of us -- myself included -- give him credit for. I think he was the best cornerback in the NFL last year. I have heard from numerous sources that Winfield is probably flat out one of the best if not best shutdown corners in the league. He may have been short but he flat out was the best we had. Bad hands, but never beat. I've got a couple sources that say differently: my left and right eye. I love the way Winfield plays the game, but the truth is that he spends too much time with receivers running behind him.
Buftex Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 For what they have done so far, and not basing things on potential, I like your list, except for the top 3! I go: 1- Nate Odomes 2- Antoine Winnfield 3- Nate Clements Nate still has the opportunity to leap frog to #1. He is more physical than Odomes, but they have some similar characteristics, namely a great ability to make big plays. The Bills, during Clements era, have been in few "big games" so it remains to be seen how he will perform in the spotlight. Odomes was able to come up with huge plays in big games, that makes him the best of the three IMO! Winnfield, down for down, is/was a better cover man than either, and rarely missed on a play. As the Bills defense improved, it was clear that Winfield was/is an elite player, in terms of coverage. He didn't have the knack for coming up with turnovers, so that is a strike against him. If he could have come up with some pick offs, I would rate him #1. It wasn't a fluke either. Winnfield had an outstanding year, on a bad Vikings defense in 2004. Thomas Smith was very good, but a notch below the other three. For years, nobody tested him, because he had average at best corners on the other side of the field. Once they did start testing him, it was clear that he was maybe not as good as his reputation suggested... If we were talking DB's in general, Henry Jones would be #4 on the list...
Lori Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 I find it interesting that that is the only play that ever comes to mind. Did Nate Clements go 16 straight games only giving up a single play to a HOF-caliber receiver? Easy there, Simonizer - that's the first play that came to mind, but it ain't necessarily the only one. The punt drop in the Stiller game was a big play, and not the only one he lost last season. (At least he got his turnover back in that game, unlike #11....) Overall, though -- the more I think about it, the closer I move to yours and harami's take. Much as I loved Antoine, Clements (and Odomes) are better... and TD has some serious deal-making to do with NC's agent.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Easy there, Simonizer - that's the first play that came to mind, but it ain't necessarily the only one. The punt drop in the Stiller game was a big play, and not the only one he lost last season. (At least he got his turnover back in that game, unlike #11....) Overall, though -- the more I think about it, the closer I move to yours and harami's take. Much as I loved Antoine, Clements (and Odomes) are better... and TD has some serious deal-making to do with NC's agent. 338040[/snapback] My take is that all three of the seasons that Antoine was here with Clements, AW was the better player overall. Clements had a little more potential to be great but his downsides and bonehead plays SLIGHTLY outweighed his playmaking plays, when compared to Antoine's consistency and his tackling and run support plays. That said, Clements played great for the most part last year, and last year was a better player than AW had been before. So IMO, Clements is better now as of 2004/2005 but AW was better in 2001, 2002 and 2003. AW is still a better coverman and run supporter. But Clements may be a better all around CB now (but wasn't before) because he is good in both those plus makes the turnovers and is a dangerous PR man.
ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 terrell owens abused him about 3 yrs ago in san fran. i can name 12 guy WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than winfield. respond and i'll write them down. AW is a great tackler, but give me a break on the "best corner" stuff. in buffalo - he played in bend but don't break wde phillips then ted cottrell cover 2 - safety help -- NO MAN COVERAGE. now cottrell is back with AW in minnisota and winfield will have help over the top all game long again. great corners are the guys who can cover all game in solo coverage IMO. Good attempt, but I have heard from numerous sources that Winfield is probably flat out one of the best if not best shutdown corners in the league. He may have been short but he flat out was the best we had. Bad hands, but never beat. 338013[/snapback]
Simon Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 that's the first play that came to mind, but it ain't necessarily the only one. The punt drop in the Stiller game was a big play, and not the only one he lost last season. Actually I was only referring to his work as a corner. I'm not fond of the cavalier way in which he handles punts, but I still think he's the best corner on the planet right now. At least he got his turnover back in that game Yeah and then forced 3 more on top of it for a total of 4 in the biggest game of the year! AW is still a better coverman You're a mad, mad dog Kelly. I'll agree that Antoine is still a little better in the short zones than Nate, but Clements is far superior to Winfield everywhere else on the field. Cya
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 I was thinking about this earlier today and I'm kind've conflicted. I have him in front of Thomas Smith and Antoine Winfield because of his overall ability of tackling, covering and punt returns. I also have him in front of a bunch of other obvious guys such as Ken Irvin, Morlon Kerner, JD Williams etc etc. The only CB that gives Nate Clements any comp is Nate Odomes. Nate Odomes made some huge plays in his day. The strip and TD return against Denver in Buffalo on primetime comes to mind as well as the pick he had against The Houston Oilers and Warren Moon. If I had to rank them it'll probably be: 1. Clements. He does it all! 2. Odomes. Great cover guy with good hands. 3. Winfield. The best tackling CB I've ever seen. 4. Thomas Smith. Hands of stone but he still shut down opposing WR's. 5. Jeff Burris. Decent CB. 6. Kerner. This guy looked like he was gonna be one helluva baller until he got injured. Didn't he shut Jerry Rice down in 98 or was that in 96 when Darick Holmes fumbled the ball on the goalline at San Fran when Rice was still good? 7. Ken Irvin. 8 & 9. Toss up. Between the punt catcher and JD Williams. They both stunk. 10. Everyone else. 337983[/snapback] I almost want to say that that sells Thomas Smith short. The only real knock against him I've ever heard is that "hands of stone" line. Sure, he couldn't catch a cold...but no one he covered was going to catch one, either. Interceptions aren't the sum total of a CB's play...nor do I personally think they're even the biggest one. And Smith was a pretty damn good cover corner. I might - might - rank him as better than Clements or Odomes. Not Winfield (and clearly, from that statement, I'd rank Winfield #1.)
MartyBall4Buffalo Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Actually I was only referring to his work as a corner. I'm not fond of the cavalier way in which he handles punts, but I still think he's the best corner on the planet right now.Yeah and then forced 3 more on top of it for a total of 4 in the biggest game of the year! You're a mad, mad dog Kelly. I'll agree that Antoine is still a little better in the short zones than Nate, but Clements is far superior to Winfield everywhere else on the field. Cya 338050[/snapback] I happen to whole heartedly agree with your assesment of Nate Clements, however you speak of clements as a top 5 corner outside of other teams fans and you'd be scoffed at. Unfairly so. I'm hard pressed to find a better corner in the ENTIRE LEAGUE right now than Nate Clements. I also have a hard time finding evidence of many bone headed plays that would knock him down from the pedestal where I put him. The Jimmy Smith thing well Chris Mcallister was stated as saying Jimmy Smith is the toughest wr he's had to face yet. The Fumbles on punt returns don't change my mind that clements not only shutdown his side of the field but can also run across to the other side of the field and make plays, The 2003 week 3 game @ miami comes to mind when clements ran across the field to pick off a pass intended for chris chambers who was being covered btw by winfield. He makes plays, and is leaps and bounds improving as a cover guy. If he has the type of year this season he's fully capable of You pay the man. BTW 1. Clements 2. Odoms 3. Winfield 4. Thomas Smith 5. Jeff Burris
Simon Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 you speak of clements as a top 5 corner outside of other teams fans and you'd be scoffed at. Did you happen to catch the thread over on Washington's board that somebody posted a month or two ago? Their assessments of Clements' value in a draft-day trade were just hysterical. Jimmy Smith is the toughest wr he's had to face yet. Not to mention that Smith was by far the best player on the Jags O that day, single-handedly rescuing his team on more than one occasion. Cya P.S. If I made a top 5 list it'd probably look exactly like yours.
ans4e64 Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Good attempt, but I have heard from numerous sources that Winfield is probably flat out one of the best if not best shutdown corners in the league. He may have been short but he flat out was the best we had. Bad hands, but never beat. 338013[/snapback] Thats just not correct..... im sorry, he was a very good cover corner, but i distinctly remember him getting burned a few times, i saw him last year with the vikings get burned by marvin harrison, there were a few times where he got beat badly.
brihs2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Thats just not correct..... im sorry, he was a very good cover corner, but i distinctly remember him getting burned a few times, i saw him last year with the vikings get burned by marvin harrison, there were a few times where he got beat badly. 338099[/snapback] Harrison always got the best of Winfield. I remember seeing him fly past Toine numerous times over the years. Also a side note... Jeff Burris currently resides in Indianapolis. Saw him dropping off his kids at school a month or two ago.
Bill from NYC Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Good attempt, but I have heard from numerous sources that Winfield is probably flat out one of the best if not best shutdown corners in the league. He may have been short but he flat out was the best we had. Bad hands, but never beat. 338013[/snapback] I never thought this. Imo, Nate is clearly the more skilled and complete player of the two. Winfield looks better on run support, but not by much imo and Nate seems to be clearly superior as a cover corner.
ch19079 Posted May 17, 2005 Posted May 17, 2005 Terrence Mcgee? I think he should be between Irvin and Jd Williams/ Chris Watson. 337991[/snapback] i thaught we agreed never to say watsons name here again... and McGee is over rated by many bills fans.
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