Move White to safety

[Bob in STL]

22 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Bills should seriously consider moving Tre to safety when he returns. Right now Elam and Jackson are playing well and Benford will be back soon. The weakest link on the defense is Johnson/Hamlin opposite Poyer. 

Rod Woodson did this and landed in the HOF after his knee surgery and this history indeed sways my thinking. Woodson probably makes the HOF as a CB regardless. Others have done it too - Aneas Williams was another.

Tre is a great corner but it does appear to be true that McD's system allows CBs of all skill levels to do well. Akin to an OL playing your best 5 somewhat agnostic of position, perhaps the Bills should do the same thing in the secondary with their best 4 players plus Taron Johnson at nickel.

My only hesitation for White to safety is that he has never been a great tackler in the open field. 

Hyde may never play for the Bills again given his injury and only 1 more year on his contract. Moving White to safety now and letting the rookies play CB gives them a long term plan for years to come in the secondary.

 

Feel free to flame away, but I look forward to what others think. 

Seems reactionary to move out on this so fast.    Lets see how Tre and how Micah look when they return first.  Let's be happy that we have a pile of good looking young DBs. 

 

If I was Tre and the Bills said, "we are moving you to safety right now", I would be not too happy.   Lets give Tre a shot to recover and return to form in the position he excels at.  Besides, Tre may never project as a safety in this defense and he has a big shutdown corner contract. 

 

Elam and Benford are playing very good football but they still have a lot to learn.  They have never faced Mahommes, Brady, Herbert, Burrow, etc. , so lets not anoint them based on a few games.   The NFL has a way of catching up.   Lets also recognize that the DL pass rush is helping a lot. 

 

As for Hamlin and Jaquan Johnson,  why don't we let the coaches decide if they are the weakest links?   I have not seen a major mistake by Hamlin yet, but I am not an expert either.    Thankfully, McDermott and Frazier are experts.  

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

8 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Completely agree.  It's not that far-fetched and was talked about when he was drafted.  We're about 3 years too early for the discussion but it could very well be a late-career move for Tre.

The knee injury may have sped up that timeline 

No way he moves if he is healthy. Of course if he is healthy they probably don't draft Elam in first round too.

[Big Turk]

Huh?  Where do people come up with this stuff?  Bro, stop playing Madden. It's not real life.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

21 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

none of what you said here is accurate or backed up by anything. The insistence by a handful of people here to shift players away from their natural positions is borderline deranged. 
 

Taron Johnson? Gotta move him to the boundary.

 

Edmunds? Try him as an edge rusher.

 

ALL-PRO corner Tre White? Obviously better as a safety. 
 

Insane.

Please point out something inaccurate in my post

[gonzo1105]

While I think White isn't the move, I believe that the Bills should be trying to convert one of their CB's to Safety in the near future. We have White, Elam, Benford, and Jackson who are starting caliber corners in the NFL at least in this system. 

 

Its great to have that depth at CB and that doesn't even include Taron Johnson at Nickle with Cam Lewis/Siran Neal who have played live NFL snaps in the regular season. My guess is that you will see one of Benford/Dane Jackson cross trained at safety once everyone is healthy.  Dane Jackson actually took some safety reps while at Pitt and evaluators thought Benford might be a better safety than corner. 

[freddyjj]

3 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

The knee injury may have sped up that timeline 

No way he moves if he is healthy. Of course if he is healthy they probably don't draft Elam in first round too.

Fact Check:  The Bills lost another starting CB in offseason in Levi Wallace and at draft time that was the only open starting position if Tre was coming back in 2022.

Beane was drafting a CB even if Tre was healthy.  One needs to have a pipeline of key position players on cost controlled contracts.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

Huh?  Where do people come up with this stuff?  Bro, stop playing Madden. It's not real life.

Injuries are real life. Poyer and Hyde were both corners before moving to safety. That is real life. Neither were anywhere near the class White was in, but you make it seem like players don't move postions. 

Von Miller was an OLB and now he plays 4-3 DE. 

 

Just now, freddyjj said:

Fact Check:  The Bills lost another starting CB in offseason in Levi Wallace and at draft time that was the only open starting position if Tre was coming back in 2022.

Beane was drafting a CB even if Tre was healthy.  One needs to have a pipeline of key position players on cost controlled contracts.  

Jackson was already on the team and playing last season. Yes it would be very likely with a healthy White they would still have drafted another CB with Levi gone. But it would have been less of a need and perhaps Beane would have considered WR or OL. Heck many on here still wanted WR in first round even with White coming off injury.  

[JoPoy88]

3 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Please point out something inaccurate in my post

the statement that Hamlin is a weak link, for starters.

 

the assumption that White, given his age, size and skillset (and salary), can or even should make this transition now is another.

 

comparing him to Woodson and Aeneas Williams is yet another (that’s how you spell Williams’ name, by the way.)

[Logic]

White isn't moving.

If it gets to a point where we have a fully healthy cornerback depth chart, though, with

White
Jackson
Elam
Benford
Johnson
Neal
Lewis

 

all healthy...

I would definitely be okay with them starting to seriously cross-train Benford at safety.

Benford, to me, has the look of a player who's too good to be banished to the bench. Once White comes back, and with Jackson ahead of him on the depth chart and Elam starting to look good (not to mention having high draft capital invested in him), I think it might be a wise move to see if Benford has a long term future at safety. His strengths as a player -- instincts, anticipation, zone eyes, size, strength, and tackling -- all seem like they'd translate well to the safety position. And we know that our coaches aren't shy to play converted corners back there (see: Poyer and Hyde).

[Nextmanup]

It's worth at least thinking about, and I bet the coaching staff already has.

 

 

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

 

Von Miller was an OLB and now he plays 4-3 DE. 

 

 

BS comparison. He’s an edge rusher in either case.

 

I starting to think you’re just incredibly bored and don’t really believe in any of this.

[mikemac2001]

This is so stupid 

[JoPoy88]

1 minute ago, Nextmanup said:

It's worth at least thinking about, and I bet the coaching staff already has.

 

 

you’d lose that bet.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

We probably win the SB last year with Tre at CB.  This is a discussion for 3 years from now if it needs to happen at all.

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Injuries are real life. Poyer and Hyde were both corners before moving to safety. That is real life. Neither were anywhere near the class White was in, but you make it seem like players don't move postions. 

Von Miller was an OLB and now he plays 4-3 DE. 

 

You don't take an All-Pro corner and immediately move him to safety due to an injury.  Totally different positions and totally different responsibilities in a defense. I also think White is too spindly to be a safety.  Poyer and Hyde have different body types than White does.

 

OLB in a 3-4 and DE in a 4-3 have pretty close to the same responsibilities in terms of being an edge rusher so I am not sure why you are using that as an example.  If you said he went from being a DE in a 4-3 to a DE in 3-4 now that would be a whole different ballgame with very different responsibilities.

 

[BearNorth]

Cornerback is valued for top players at about $5MM more than safeties, based on franchise tag numbers.  We have the third highest DB payroll in the league already.  Doubt we want to pay Tre #1 corner money to play safety.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

54 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Bills should seriously consider moving Tre to safety when he returns. Right now Elam and Jackson are playing well and Benford will be back soon. The weakest link on the defense is Johnson/Hamlin opposite Poyer. 

Rod Woodson did this and landed in the HOF after his knee surgery and this history indeed sways my thinking. Woodson probably makes the HOF as a CB regardless. Others have done it too - Aneas Williams was another.

Tre is a great corner but it does appear to be true that McD's system allows CBs of all skill levels to do well. Akin to an OL playing your best 5 somewhat agnostic of position, perhaps the Bills should do the same thing in the secondary with their best 4 players plus Taron Johnson at nickel.

My only hesitation for White to safety is that he has never been a great tackler in the open field. 

Hyde may never play for the Bills again given his injury and only 1 more year on his contract. Moving White to safety now and letting the rookies play CB gives them a long term plan for years to come in the secondary.

 

Feel free to flame away, but I look forward to what others think. 

I’ve actually thought the exact same thing.

 

It allows you to keep your 5 best DBs on the field at all times, and adds speed at Safety.

 

Johnson is entrenched at slot, and you’re not going to take Dane Jackson off the field, so it makes a lot of sense to me. 

[mjd1001]

While positions still matter, and Safetys certainly have different roles than CBs, those lines are a lot more blurred now than they used to be years ago.

 

Depending on your D-scheme, you may have a Safety playing a lot more man to man or taking on responsibilities traditional to a CB than in the past.  On the other hand, a CB may line up closer to the center of the field (in a traditional Safety position) based on the formation the offense is using.  

 

I'm not saying traditional roles and labels are going away this year or next, but whether a player is defined as a CB or Safety may not matter much....you put players in your Defense based on what their skills are.  If White actually did 'slow down' after his injury, no need to 'officialy' change his position, just line him up and give him responsibilities based on his skills and the skills of those around him.  Labeling him a particular position really means less.   Its a lot like how a lot of Defensive Ends/Linebackers play in a way where their position is a label only. You have traditional Ends and traditiona LBs. You have LB's that rush almost every down like an end used to. You have Ends who drop in coverage or who's goal is to set the corner more like a LB would be.  Good coaches and teams don't label players with a position and make them fit into a traditional role...they play them on each play where they need them to be based on that players talents and the scheme.

[Billz4ever]

55 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Bills should seriously consider moving Tre to safety when he returns. Right now Elam and Jackson are playing well and Benford will be back soon. The weakest link on the defense is Johnson/Hamlin opposite Poyer. 

Rod Woodson did this and landed in the HOF after his knee surgery and this history indeed sways my thinking. Woodson probably makes the HOF as a CB regardless. Others have done it too - Aneas Williams was another.

Tre is a great corner but it does appear to be true that McD's system allows CBs of all skill levels to do well. Akin to an OL playing your best 5 somewhat agnostic of position, perhaps the Bills should do the same thing in the secondary with their best 4 players plus Taron Johnson at nickel.

My only hesitation for White to safety is that he has never been a great tackler in the open field. 

Hyde may never play for the Bills again given his injury and only 1 more year on his contract. Moving White to safety now and letting the rookies play CB gives them a long term plan for years to come in the secondary.

 

Feel free to flame away, but I look forward to what others think. 

Tre's strength is being a shutdown corner.  Who he's covering is going to be blanketed with very few windows for the QB to get the ball to that receiver or that part of the field.

 

Safety is nothing like that.  There's much more reading of the QB, being the coverage over the top of plays to discourage and prevent the deep balls, and to be able to act in an instant for run support on a handoff up the middle or off tackle.

 

Completely different skill sets and Tre is undoubtedly a guy with the skillsets of a shutdown corner, not a safety.

 

 

[Shaw66]

51 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Bills should seriously consider moving Tre to safety when he returns. Right now Elam and Jackson are playing well and Benford will be back soon. The weakest link on the defense is Johnson/Hamlin opposite Poyer. 

Rod Woodson did this and landed in the HOF after his knee surgery and this history indeed sways my thinking. Woodson probably makes the HOF as a CB regardless. Others have done it too - Aneas Williams was another.

Tre is a great corner but it does appear to be true that McD's system allows CBs of all skill levels to do well. Akin to an OL playing your best 5 somewhat agnostic of position, perhaps the Bills should do the same thing in the secondary with their best 4 players plus Taron Johnson at nickel.

My only hesitation for White to safety is that he has never been a great tackler in the open field. 

Hyde may never play for the Bills again given his injury and only 1 more year on his contract. Moving White to safety now and letting the rookies play CB gives them a long term plan for years to come in the secondary.

 

Feel free to flame away, but I look forward to what others think. 

I said this early in the summer, not so much about doing this season but about doing it for 2023 when Poyer likely will be gone.  He has the brains, and he'd be an extraordinary cover guy to move around.  Like you, however, I have doubts about asking him to take on the kind of run-stopping role the Bills want their safeties to play. 

 

You've come to this idea because the Bills seem to have two rookie corners who can play, plus Dane Jackson, so they could afford to move White.   That leads me to a different conclusion:  Leave White at corner where he has a simpler run stopping role and can be a true shut-down corner when needed, and move TARON JOHNSON to safety.  He has the cover skills, he's a better and more durable run stopper than White.  Benford would be a great slot corner, and Jackson would be my second choice.

 

One thing that is so good about this notion that one of the corners should move to safety is that in the nickel the Bills would have FIVE guys on the field who had proved themselves as starting corners in the NFL.   FIVE cover guys.  

 

Plus, Hamlin has held up pretty well, and I'm not writing off Jaquan.   All of this thinking together convinced me months ago, and I'm more convinced now that we've seen all these guys on the field, that Poyer is in his last season in Buffalo.